Musings on the "Lawful Jerk" Paladin

The Crimson Binome · Feb 25, 2018

ehren37 said:
You're ascribing some kind of mindless, innate evil to orcs that doesn't jive with how they have been presented in most worlds.

It jives with Tolkien, though. We don't have any way to survey all of the different fantasy worlds, but I'd wager that many of them take their cue from Tolkien in this regard. The early Monster Manuals all seem to assume it. It's not until you get into specific weird setting, like Forgotten Realms, where they begin to change their tone at all.

TheCosmicKid · Feb 25, 2018

ehren37 said:
Alignment IS bad on its own, but paladins made it worse for everyone at the table. The oaths are much better IMO, as they tell you what to do. "Be Lawful" is useless.

This is a very strange thing to say, as paladins have gotten clear codes of conduct above and beyond "be lawful" in almost every iteration. It is this code that distinguishes them from mere lawful good fighters and clerics, about whom I've seen far fewer complaints. Furthermore, it's the editions where they've gotten the strictest codes -- 1E and 2E -- from which the "jerk paladin" archetype originates in the first place. In short, the evidence seems to point to the codes, not alignment, as correlating with problem behavior. So if we were to drop the overall alignment system but keep the codes, as you seem to be suggesting, I am extremely skeptical that the amount of jerk paladins would significantly decrease.

Tia Nadiezja · Feb 25, 2018

Saelorn said:
It jives with Tolkien, though. We don't have any way to survey all of the different fantasy worlds, but I'd wager that many of them take their cue from Tolkien in this regard. The early Monster Manuals all seem to assume it. It's not until you get into specific weird setting, like Forgotten Realms, where they begin to change their tone at all.

Something that seems to get lost a lot is that the Realms are, in fact, a specific weird setting. The Generic D&D World has never actually been published as a full setting - even Greyhawk and Mystara have their quirks.

Jefe Bergenstein · Feb 26, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
This is a very strange thing to say, as paladins have gotten clear codes of conduct above and beyond "be lawful" in almost every iteration. It is this code that distinguishes them from mere lawful good fighters and clerics, about whom I've seen far fewer complaints. Furthermore, it's the editions where they've gotten the strictest codes -- 1E and 2E -- from which the "jerk paladin" archetype originates in the first place. In short, the evidence seems to point to the codes, not alignment, as correlating with problem behavior. So if we were to drop the overall alignment system but keep the codes, as you seem to be suggesting, I am extremely skeptical that the amount of jerk paladins would significantly decrease.

You had to atone for "chaotic" acts, and what that meant was anyone's guess. Something like Bond/Flaw/Trait or Fate's aspect system guides narrative and informs personality more than alignment ever could. Saying someone is kind but vain tells me a lot more about their character than they are chaotic.

What alignment is Batman again?

Oofta · Feb 26, 2018

ehren37 said:
You had to atone for "chaotic" acts, and what that meant was anyone's guess. Something like Bond/Flaw/Trait or Fate's aspect system guides narrative and informs personality more than alignment ever could. Saying someone is kind but vain tells me a lot more about their character than they are chaotic.

What alignment is Batman again?

At least that one has an easy answer.

TheCosmicKid · Feb 26, 2018

ehren37 said:
You had to atone for "chaotic" acts, and what that meant was anyone's guess, but hey, you just keep on apologizing for a poorly done system man that's worthless outside of an ivory tower.

If that's what you think I'm doing, then it's you who hasn't been reading my posts. If you do want my opinion on alignment, it's that it only becomes a problem when somebody at the table is determined to make it so -- and watching you repeatedly attack it while all but ignoring the actual topic of this thread has not exactly dissuaded me of this belief. But I could agree with you point for point on the evils of the alignment system, and it wouldn't change the fact that, by any rational analysis, it is not relevant here. Every character has an alignment, so if alignment were to blame for this jerk behavior, the complaint would be about jerk LG characters, not jerk paladins. If we want to figure out what causes the jerk paladin phenomenon, we have to look at factors specific to paladins. The prime suspect is the special code of conduct. Which you speak in approval of. Which, as I said, is very strange.

Jefe Bergenstein · Feb 26, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
If that's what you think I'm doing, then it's you who hasn't been reading my posts. If you do want my opinion on alignment, it's that it only becomes a problem when somebody at the table is determined to make it so -- and watching you repeatedly attack it while all but ignoring the actual topic of this thread has not exactly dissuaded me of this belief. But I could agree with you point for point on the evils of the alignment system, and it wouldn't change the fact that, by any rational analysis, it is not relevant here. Every character has an alignment, so if alignment were to blame for this jerk behavior, the complaint would be about jerk LG characters, not jerk paladins. If we want to figure out what causes the jerk paladin phenomenon, we have to look at factors specific to paladins. The prime suspect is the special code of conduct. Which you speak in approval of. Which, as I said, is very strange.

Paladins lost their powers in 2e if they commit Chaotic acts. What does that even mean? Clearly different things to everyone. That's where alignment factors in.

Geez, are you on Big Alignment's payroll? You're like a cigarette rep wanting to avoid discussing lung cancer in a tax discussion. The taxes are there, in part, because of the health risk and increased cost to society. Alignment problems and paladin problems are two linked issues.

For the record, I've never seen alignment add anything positive to the game. Test case. Erase your character's alignment from your character sheet and see how nothing changes.

lowkey13 · Feb 26, 2018

*Deleted by user*

Jefe Bergenstein · Feb 26, 2018

Oofta said:
At least that one has an easy answer.

View attachment 94626

Proving my point.

I vote for chaotic neutral with evil tendencies. He respects virtually no one's authority but his own, and is motivated by vengeance over justice. If he poured a tenth of the resources he did as Batman into helping reform Arkham, getting the Gotham PD better equipped to deal with villains and improving society he's make more of a difference. But then he wouldn't get his jollies beating up the mentally ill and criminals. He can kill Darkseid but not keep some non-metahumans in check? I think he likes the catch and release too much. He's basically a bad guy pointed at worse guys.

Jefe Bergenstein · Feb 26, 2018

lowkey13 said:
I've never seen alignment NOT add anything positive to my games.

HA! My anecdote beats up your anecdote. What are you going to about that, huh?

Seriously, though, [MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION] is correct; you might have a beef with alignment, in which case, MORE POWER TO YA! Start a thread on it.

But as he pointed out, no one complains about all the other jerky classes. Just jerky Paladins. And they have done so even without alignment restrictions. After all, a Paladin will be just as jerky if you wipe the LG off of his character sheet.

Oh, I totally have a beef with alignment. I thought it was pretty stupid as a kid, as an adult I have even less use for it. I cannot fathom an adult being exposed to it and thinking it's useful, so imagine it's defenders must have been indoctrinated very early.

But Paladin issues marinated in many editions of alignment garbage and the two are intertwined. Again, I point to the Lawful part of the thread title. A LG Fighter don't lose anything for not being lawful or good all the time. In previous editions, alignment mattered more to paladins than other classes.

You still are ignoring that they have to atone for chaotic acts, which is more or less entirely subjective.