ZEITGEIST [ZEITGEIST] Understanding power sources in Zeitgeist 4e

EarthSeraphEdna · Feb 23, 2018

I am trying to understand power sources in Zeitgeist 4e. Is the following diagram correct?

Is it indeed accurate that the arcane power source is actually the power of Vona, the sun, which means that even ice wizards draw upon the sun for power? Is it true that this is not actually an animistic setting, and there are no "primal spirits" in the 4e sense of animistic nature spirits? Is it correct to say that such "primal spirits" are instead replaced by fey in this setting?

RangerWickett · Feb 23, 2018

I'm not 100% sure I'd describe it quite the way you do, but yeah, that's mostly on point, for a "Magic Theory 101" level class.

Consider the real world, though, and how complex things are. Magic is like, I dunno, books. There are a few main publishers, but a lot of indie presses too, and occasionally an item goes out of print with one publisher but gets rereleased by somebody else.

I suppose the real question is what is your concern about?

EarthSeraphEdna · Feb 24, 2018

Zeitgeist is a very "scientific" setting. Technologists and martial scientists alike are studious folk who pick apart the "Why" and the "How" of machines and swordplay alike. I do not see why the same rigor should not be applied to magical power sources, such that characters are more well-equipped to discuss magic in-character.

For example, what is the general consensus on whether or not there are animistic nature spirits in Zeitgeist? Is there a consensus, in-universe?

Are fey titans considered "primal spirits," especially for the purpose of the primal power source?

Do people actually know where arcane magic comes from? Just how much of it comes from Vona, the sun?

RangerWickett · Feb 24, 2018

Where does magnetism come from?

It just is, or at least that's what we think now. We're looking for a deeper explanation. But for right now, there's just magnetism.

EarthSeraphEdna · Feb 25, 2018

Does this mean that, in-universe, nobody actually knows where arcane magic comes from?

What about "primal spirits"? Is this an animistic setting where there are animistic nature spirits everywhere, ala Points of Light, or is it all just fey?

RangerWickett · Feb 25, 2018

My personal philosophy of fantasy worldbuilding is that trying to catalog all the types and sources of magic is like trying to catalog all the species on earth. If magic exists at all, it should manifest in a lot of different ways. Scholars know all the important ones and a large variety of minor ones, but reality is diverse.

So sure there are animistic nature spirits. They just don't have a union like the fey do, so they don't make as big of an impact.

So do people not know where arcane magic comes from?

I'd say, rather, that learned people don't actually know where arcane magic comes from. Less scholarly folks of course know where arcane magic comes from, and their answers often contradict.

ZEITGEIST, as a story, is all about the uncertainty of belief, and the challenge of finding truth in the face of mystery and often active obfuscation. And the great thing is, if it's a question you care about, eventually you can actually make the answer you want to be true be true.

hirou · Feb 25, 2018

Oooh, ooh, I like this kind of stuff. If you're looking for facts established in canon to base your campaign "scientific" magic rules, from the top of my head, in no particular order:

It's never directly stated anywhere, but I always assumed that ZG's world is part of usual D&D Multiverse, which just happened to be blocked off by Axis Seal Ritual. Then all usual sources of magic can be applied, e.g. there's still Weave of Mystra in the world, it's just the goddess herself, who is absent in this world. Actually, this sounds like a great idea for "scientific news": after many unsuccessful attemps, researchers of Pardwright University develop the Unifying Magic Theory, which is presented at some international conference (tied to internation peace talks, maybe?). It neatly explains the observed quirks of magic, but some fellow from Danor studies it in details and proves that it explicitly requires an existance of an exterior "Architect" of unmeasurable but defined power. And this Architect is nowhere to be found in the world, which puts the theory under heavy criticism.
It's mentioned in one of the last Adventures that when one of Risuri Titans dies, animals/spirits of the area kinda start a vaguely described competition trying to take its place. The winner eventually fully replaces the slain titan, perhaps with slight change of domain. This also implies that the current titans are not the original ones, and they kinda seem different from one another: Grandma Allswell is notably (and contextually befitting) ancient, Voice of Rot seems timeless, Father of Thunder (I think? I always mix up the deer and the wolf ones) is noted to have had a family and progeny.
ZG was stated to happen in the same world as War of the Burning Sky, which explicitly have some Great Primordial Spirits. There are dragon, eagle, leviathan and earthwyrm, I think, which bear names of Jiese, Avilona, Mavisha and Shimbul (which raises some very interesting questions about Urim), details mentioned in "Sleep, Ye Cursed Child", if I'm not mistaken.
It's debatable whether divine source of power is actually present in ZG world. Triegenis, as it's revealed, has never actually ascended to godhood, at least - not visibly, which does not hinder the believers to create miracles in his name. Perhaps it's psionics all the way down (this is why, deep down in the depth of my fanon, ZG's world may actually be Athas of Dark Sun, millenia in future). I'm not sure if my memory is playing tricks on me, but I think it's mentioned somewhere, that some adepts of Millerism started manifesting psionic/miraculous powers recently, further bridging faith and mind power.
One thing that I like about ZG's magic in particular is that it may not be bound by cause-effect rules. Problems of air magic appear not because white pillar at Axis Island was broken, they just coincide with pillar breaking, Avilona's eagle being wounded millenia ago and its condition worsening, and Ob's unsuccessful tinkering in Ziggurat of Avilona - three completely unrelated thing just happening at the same exact moment with the same result. It kinda rhymes with the fact that the final battles in the Gyre and on the Seal just accidentally happen at the exact same time, which is also accidentally the one day Nicodemus is trying to redo the ritual and Voice of Rot is consuming Reida and ascending to true godhood. There is no reason why all these things happen simultaneously but for the fact, that the world is on the brink of change in more than one way, and the Universal Natural Law of Narrative Fairness demands it to be a equal opposing force (party of PCs) in each case.