D&D 5E What do you do when players say "we go north" but their characters don't have the "Keen Mind" Feat or Navigation Equipment?

Hussar said:

I'd knock about 7 off those numbers. IOW, a 13+ lets you go north. It's not like it's really that hard. OTOH, I'd probably ask for checks every hour or two to see if they can stay on course.

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The biggest problem with traveling in any given direction is that the terrain is rarely clear of obstacles for long, which is often what gets people turned around.

EX: lets say you want to head south. You know that the Big River you are near travels south. Problem, Big River drops into Big Canyon after about a mile. The nearest path down is fairly circuitous and off to your left. So you travel (assuming the river was heading south at this point) East a little bit. When you get to the path down, you find it actually curves off into some smaller canyons, which may eventually meet back up with Big River, but there's no guarantee that you'll be able to continue to follow Big River, or that Big River is still actually heading south now.

OR: Lets say you're in a forest. You can see moss and stars so you can get a rough idea of North. Problem? Some areas are too heavily wooded to pass through, in other areas there are steep mountainsides or cliffs preventing straight travel. You follow the cliff hoping to find a path up, only to slowly be pushed West for several hours.

Repeat this process several times and you'll find you're very quickly turned around, even with guides like moss or stars. Even IRL it is fairly easy to get lost in the woods without locating devices. Add in magical complications and even locating devices may not help.

That is to say I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to get lost in the woods, even if you're good at it! Skilled hikers and guides get lost all the time IRL.

Once any chances for success or failure have been determined (by any preferred method), I have a d8 labeled as an eight point compass rose (or I'll roll 1d12 if using hexes).

If they can see the sun, or the stars? Either a survival check with advantage, or no roll if getting lost is not significant in this region (like running into a camp of goblins, or in a freezing environment).

If they cannot see something to orient themselves? A normal survival check.

If they are in a dungeon that has any decent amount of twists and turns? A survival check with disadvantage.

Hiya!

I'm sorry, but you guys are far to nice to your players!

In my game, if a player simply states "We'll head North"...I wait for a second or two. If they haven't offered up 'how' they are doing that, I make an assumption and roll their Survival check for them. Depending on what I roll, they either figure out which way actually IS north...or they fail and kinda just wonder off in a direction determined as per 1e AD&D, Hackmaster, or BECMI (depending on whatever book is closest to me at the time...or whatever book I know the location of...I have FAR too many RPG's, stacks of paper, pads of graph paper, etc).

Of course, my players know my 'style' of DM'ing so they are usually pretty good at explaining what/how they are doing stuff. They still get caught in situations where someone will say something like "We head north"...and then I'll say "North? Really?"...and they all look at their sheets and realize that nobody has a freaking clue how to navigate in the wilderness. Or nobody knows how to swim, or fish, or whatever (depending on what RPG we're playing).

Anyway, yeah...you guys are pretty nice DM's. I'm...er...less so? I guess as long as everyone's having fun and all that..

^_^

Paul L. Ming

pming said:

Hiya!

I'm sorry, but you guys are far to nice to your players!

In my game, if a player simply states "We'll head North"...I wait for a second or two. If they haven't offered up 'how' they are doing that, I make an assumption and roll their Survival check for them. Depending on what I roll, they either figure out which way actually IS north...or they fail and kinda just wonder off in a direction determined as per 1e AD&D, Hackmaster, or BECMI (depending on whatever book is closest to me at the time...or whatever book I know the location of...I have FAR too many RPG's, stacks of paper, pads of graph paper, etc).

Of course, my players know my 'style' of DM'ing so they are usually pretty good at explaining what/how they are doing stuff. They still get caught in situations where someone will say something like "We head north"...and then I'll say "North? Really?"...and they all look at their sheets and realize that nobody has a freaking clue how to navigate in the wilderness. Or nobody knows how to swim, or fish, or whatever (depending on what RPG we're playing).

Anyway, yeah...you guys are pretty nice DM's. I'm...er...less so? I guess as long as everyone's having fun and all that..

^_^

Paul L. Ming

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Interestingly enough, this is the reverse of the usual "player-vs-character" issue often seen in the game; but, instead of the player knowing something that the character doesn't, in this case the character almost certainly knows something that the player might not. In a pre-modern world, like virtually any game world, if, like the example I gave above, the planet in question has a relatively bright pole star, there is virtually no chance that any surface-dwelling character on such a world would not know how to immediately identify it and be able to steer in a particular direction using it. That would have been basic, useful knowledge ingrained into any such character, as it was in the inhabitants of our own world during the pre-modern era. It's only ceased to be ingrained into us in the present day since so many of us live in cities where the light drowns out most of the stars and we have maps and other ways to give us directions. So, while your players may be clueless on how to find north on a clear night, their characters (as long as they were raised on the surface) almost certainly would not be...

If they have managed to orientate themselves at some point, AND they are keeping a map, then I let them... assuming their map is correct

pming said:

Hiya!

I'm sorry, but you guys are far to nice to your players!

In my game, if a player simply states "We'll head North"...I wait for a second or two. If they haven't offered up 'how' they are doing that, I make an assumption and roll their Survival check for them. Depending on what I roll, they either figure out which way actually IS north...or they fail and kinda just wonder off in a direction determined as per 1e AD&D, Hackmaster, or BECMI (depending on whatever book is closest to me at the time...or whatever book I know the location of...I have FAR too many RPG's, stacks of paper, pads of graph paper, etc).

Of course, my players know my 'style' of DM'ing so they are usually pretty good at explaining what/how they are doing stuff. They still get caught in situations where someone will say something like "We head north"...and then I'll say "North? Really?"...and they all look at their sheets and realize that nobody has a freaking clue how to navigate in the wilderness. Or nobody knows how to swim, or fish, or whatever (depending on what RPG we're playing).

Anyway, yeah...you guys are pretty nice DM's. I'm...er...less so? I guess as long as everyone's having fun and all that..

^_^

Paul L. Ming

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I figure that we will eventually run into some kind of plot which ever way we end up.

I just generally use a Survival Check for navigating as per the PHB if North isn't so obvious that they can't fail. Then I'll set a DC and impose Advantage or Disadvantage of appropriate.

If:

a) There's some circumstance that would make it difficult to find north (e.g. underground) and
b) Getting it right/wrong has interesting consequences

Then I'd ask for either a Survival roll or Intelligence roll (party nominates one character to roll...no rolling until somebody gets it right).

Otherwise I'd say, "Ok, you are going north."

Asking an Adventurer to find North is like asking a gamer to look up a rule. It's what they do.

Hiya!

Demetrios1453 said:

Interestingly enough, this is the reverse of the usual "player-vs-character" issue often seen in the game; but, instead of the player knowing something that the character doesn't, in this case the character almost certainly knows something that the player might not. In a pre-modern world, like virtually any game world, if, like the example I gave above, the planet in question has a relatively bright pole star, there is virtually no chance that any surface-dwelling character on such a world would not know how to immediately identify it and be able to steer in a particular direction using it. That would have been basic, useful knowledge ingrained into any such character, as it was in the inhabitants of our own world during the pre-modern era. It's only ceased to be ingrained into us in the present day since so many of us live in cities where the light drowns out most of the stars and we have maps and other ways to give us directions. So, while your players may be clueless on how to find north on a clear night, their characters (as long as they were raised on the surface) almost certainly would not be...

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I can see where you are coming from, but you are making a lot of assumptions. The biggest is that you are assuming that a 'game world' (say, Greyhawk) has people that do a lot of travelling. I'd hazzard a guess that for the vast majority of people in Greyhawk, for example, never go more than a dozen kilometers (call it, 8 miles) from their home/town. There is simply no need, and it is too dangerous. They would never need to know where the 'north star' is. They would be familiar with local landmarks which they would use to get around. They may know where North is because of this. But teleport that person 1000 kilometers in some random direction and they'd be totally lost in all likelyhood.

I'm an "old skool" DM. I put MUCH more weight towards the Players decisions than their PC's. I do this simply because otherwise, why bother having Players say anything? I mean, if I, as DM, am assuming that every PC knows how to navigate, how could I ever say something like "You travel north for couple days then realize you are lost" with a straight face? I've just basically "decided" that they get to where they were going all the times before...but now I just "decided" they suddenly got lost? Some groups would have no problem with this sort of DM'ing. More power to them. But for me and my players...they would feel...hmmm...."railroaded".

My players will ask if their PC might know something that they don't. If I say something that they figure they wouldn't know (they as in themselves, the Players), but that one/some of their PC's might, they bring it up. I usually then either decide, or ask for some kind of roll. They also may ask for a roll as a sort of 'modifier' to their decision/choice. So a player may say "Ok, Tallfellow will gather up some sturdy sticks, some moss, rocks, and then hack off some branches from the pine trees and use that to make a shelter. Like a lean-to or something. He's got Survival as a skill, and he is a halfling ranger", and I'll ask him to make a roll. His PC will make a lean-to shelter, but depending on the roll, it will be either barely functional, expertly crafted, or somewhere in between. The main point being that the Player decides what and how his character is going to do something...in stead of me just 'assuming' the PC is/can do it.

As I said... I'm old skool.

^_^

Paul L. Ming