D&D 5E The Problem With At Will Attack Granting

Yunru · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
Without spells I was finding it hard to get the WL healing right.

Two much at level 1 well you just made the cleric be crap and the WL should not be as good at healing as a cleric let alone life cleric.

I'm giving them a single use short rest recharge rallying cry that they get more off and they get choices to take more healing powers later on. The Inspiration one is also better at healing than the tactical one- charisma modifier to all HP regain in a 30' radius (this applies to other classes using healing abilities as well).

I might have to tweak that to the WL abilities only due to things like goodberry and lay on hands though. They also get a functional equivalent of the Bards song of rest ability.

Honestly I stopped when en5ider released A Touch of Class. The Noble was basically exactly what I was looking for.

5ekyu · Mar 10, 2018

A couple general comments.

1 the OMG he gave thief another action but theif get 10d6 etc sub in other classes etc... Falls flat for me. Rogue was built and designed with *expectation* of sneak every turn. Warlord could just as well be built, designed and balanced around each use giving the strongest attacker at every scene another action. Nothing at all inherently says that is unbalancable or broken.

That puts the onus of performance on the character to make the right choice.

Letting that extra action consume a reaction provides a bit of a nice touch imo.

I realky donr see a fighter who can grant an extra action a turn as some unbalancable monstrosity of a class... I would personally think of a number of clerics that would add even,more potential as "another character." Maybe even some rogue variants.

Zardnaar · Mar 10, 2018

Yunru said:
Honestly I stopped when en5ider released A Touch of Class. The Noble was basically exactly what I was looking for.

The Noble is a bit clunky though.

Zardnaar · Mar 10, 2018

5ekyu said:
A couple general comments.

1 the OMG he gave thief another action but theif get 10d6 etc sub in other classes etc... Falls flat for me. Rogue was built and designed with *expectation* of sneak every turn. Warlord could just as well be built, designed and balanced around each use giving the strongest attacker at every scene another action. Nothing at all inherently says that is unbalancable or broken.

That puts the onus of performance on the character to make the right choice.

Letting that extra action consume a reaction provides a bit of a nice touch imo.

I realky donr see a fighter who can grant an extra action a turn as some unbalancable monstrosity of a class... I would personally think of a number of clerics that would add even,more potential as "another character." Maybe even some rogue variants.

The Warlord can enable the Rogue to sneak attack twice per turn at will is the issue. Everything else that allows that is limited in some way ergo the Rogue is not supposed to have the opportunity to sneak attack twice per turn at will.

Yunru · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
The Noble is a bit clunky though.

Yeah, looking through it again I've started work on my own version, using the fighter and paladin (auras) as a base.

It's got me this so far:
Rallying Call is a Second Wind for others, Create Opening is an Action Surge for others, Coordinated Attack is an Extra Attack for others, and Push Through is an Indomitable for others.

Level Feature
1 Rallying Call
2 Create Opening (one use)
3 Watchman Path
4 ASI
5 Coordinated Attack
6 Aura
7 Watchman Path feature
8 ASI
9 Push Through (one use)
10 Aura
11 Watchman Path feature
12 ASI
13 Create Opening (two uses)
14 Push Through (two uses)
15 Watchman Path feature
16 ASI
17 Push Through (three uses)
18 Aura improvements
19 ASI
20

cbwjm · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
The Warlord can enable the Rogue to sneak attack twice per turn at will is the issue. Everything else that allows that is limited in some way ergo the Rogue is not supposed to have the opportunity to sneak attack twice per turn at will.

Mearls mentions in the video they don't look at the best options when balancing a class. He isn't balancing his subclass against the rogue's sneak attack, instead he is balancing it against another fighter. Not every group will have a rogue.

5ekyu · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
The Warlord can enable the Rogue to sneak attack twice per turn at will is the issue. Everything else that allows that is limited in some way ergo the Rogue is not supposed to have the opportunity to sneak attack twice per turn at will.

But... so what?!

The rogue SA was gained early and scales as they level.

A warlords "give someone else an action" could be just the same thing... gained at whatever low to mid-level and it basically "scales" as the other character's "actions" scale as well.

How is it more imbalancing for the warlord to get a class feature usable each round which can let a rogue get a new sneak attack each turn than say a second rogue getting their own sneak attack usable at the same rate?

it seems that almost by definition the warlord's ability is an inestimably balanced element since its exact power depends on how powerful the other characters are.

Again, within the concept of "is this a balanceable class feature" i do not see the problem.

Any character can use the HELP action to give someone advantage on an attack, is that "imbalanced" when the sneak attack it helps hit is doing 10d6 (there it might even be enabling the sneak, not just Helping it.)

A mastermind rogue added to the party instead of a warlord can use help out to 30' as a bonus action and then also have its own full sneak attack available... GMs in terror of an extra sneak attack from warlord-assisted rogue should really be trembling at the idea of the mastermind added to the mix instead of a warlord.

obviously, any new class can be overpowered and overloaded, but when looking at one feature, one which enables others to do more of the stuff they were doing seems almost completely one balanceable in design by its very nature.

Zardnaar · Mar 10, 2018

5ekyu said:
But... so what?!

The rogue SA was gained early and scales as they level.

A warlords "give someone else an action" could be just the same thing... gained at whatever low to mid-level and it basically "scales" as the other character's "actions" scale as well.

How is it more imbalancing for the warlord to get a class feature usable each round which can let a rogue get a new sneak attack each turn than say a second rogue getting their own sneak attack usable at the same rate?

it seems that almost by definition the warlord's ability is an inestimably balanced element since its exact power depends on how powerful the other characters are.

Again, within the concept of "is this a balanceable class feature" i do not see the problem.

Any character can use the HELP action to give someone advantage on an attack, is that "imbalanced" when the sneak attack it helps hit is doing 10d6 (there it might even be enabling the sneak, not just Helping it.)

A mastermind rogue added to the party instead of a warlord can use help out to 30' as a bonus action and then also have its own full sneak attack available... GMs in terror of an extra sneak attack from warlord-assisted rogue should really be trembling at the idea of the mastermind added to the mix instead of a warlord.

obviously, any new class can be overpowered and overloaded, but when looking at one feature, one which enables others to do more of the stuff they were doing seems almost completely one balanceable in design by its very nature.

If you took another Rogue that Rogue is not going to be able to heal along with doing other warlord stuff (I assume you want a 5E warlord to do more than heal and grant attacks). A Rogue will not be that good at range either and may not be able to SA (as opposed to a WL switching attack granting between a Rogue, Fighter, Ranger for example).

The designers of 5E were fairly tight with bonus action things and attack granting (its all limited by resources).

Yunru · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
If you took another Rogue that Rogue is not gogin to be able to heal along with doing other warlord stuff (I assume you want a 5E warlord to do more than heal and grant attacks).

The designers of 5E were fairly tight with bonus action things and attack granting (its all limited by resources).

Jokes on you! My rogue's a thief with the Healer feat!

Rossbert · Mar 10, 2018

Zardnaar said:
If you took another Rogue that Rogue is not going to be able to heal along with doing other warlord stuff (I assume you want a 5E warlord to do more than heal and grant attacks). A Rogue will not be that good at range either and may not be able to SA (as opposed to a WL switching attack granting between a Rogue, Fighter, Ranger for example).

The designers of 5E were fairly tight with bonus action things and attack granting (its all limited by resources).

I feel like the answer to that is just have the attack added on to their next turn as a bonus action instead of a reaction.