Are we overthinking the warlord?

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
That seems a fair analogy, though it may not have meant to me, what you meant it to mean. ;)
Fair. My comment was more aimed at Zard et al, who don't believe that a strong offense character with healing backup is a viable concept, despite the fact that those classes already exist in the PHB. :)

Or in-combat healing, which warlords should generally have access to (even if some specific characters might not take it, walling off something that critical to 'support' in a sub-class would be bad). Out-of-combat healing boosts? Or between-combat mitigation (along the lines of inspiring leader)? Sure. I could even see the Resourceful warlord doing the medic thing.
Considering WotC gave out a once per level faux-Healing Words to two different subclasses as a low level feature, I don't think they view access to bonus action stand up abilities as particularly powerful. Even a class based on Rogue level at-will damage could get that level of healing as a secondary feature.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Neither were 4e warlords. The cleric was unarguably top tier at healing.

Am I the only one who tried pushing 4e warlord healing to the extremes and finding that he was actually one of the best at it (providing the party had sufficient healing surges)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Considering WotC gave out a once per level faux-Healing Words to two different subclasses as a low level feature, I don't think they view access to bonus action stand up abilities as particularly powerful. Even a class based on Rogue level at-will damage could get that level of healing as a secondary feature.
Actual 5e Healing Word is a full-fledged, 1st-level-daily-slot spell, though, that's nothing to sneeze at. And, so is Cure Wounds. Putting both in a daily overall healing budget along with HD, even if the true value they represent is very different. And, from the podcast, it seems they /are/ thinking about healing resources that way.

...and, I think I've just illustrated the OP's point, that, yeah, we're way over-thinking this....

;(
 


TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
...and, I think I've just illustrated the OP's point, that, yeah, we're way over-thinking this....
Yea, we've spilled a lot of virtual ink on a class that, let's face it, isn't going to be released by WotC. Maybe we can petition Paizo for PF2... :)
 

The warlord needs to stand in as a primary healer. At least one of its subclasses does. It doesnt need to do things the way that a magical cleric or bard or druid does, but the warlord needs to cope satisfactorily with continual hit point loss.

This assumes:
1) The party needs a primary healer
2) The cleric and druid are primary healers.
3) Healing is the only benefit provided by "leader" characters.

This is wrong on all three levels.

1) 5e doesn't require combat healing. That was 4e design, which has been replaced by Hit Dice.
2) Only one cleric domain of the nine mandates healing. And none of the druid circles You can play a cleric and bard and druid and never cast a healing spell. In the case of the bard, you might not even know a healing spell.
3) A component of a "leader" characters is removing status effects: poison, disease, curses, petrification, lost limbs, drained stats, lycanthrope, etc.

Why would healing be a more essential and core part of the tactician and strategist than the cleric?

And even if it was, a non-magical replacement is unable to stand in as a replacement for a cleric/ bard/ druid/ divine soul sorcerer/ celestial warlock.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
This assumes:
1) The party needs a primary healer
2) The cleric and druid are primary healers.
3) Healing is the only benefit provided by "leader" characters.

This is wrong on all three levels.

1) 5e doesn't require combat healing. That was 4e design, which has been replaced by Hit Dice.
2) Only one cleric domain of the nine mandates healing. And none of the druid circles You can play a cleric and bard and druid and never cast a healing spell. In the case of the bard, you might not even know a healing spell.
3) A component of a "leader" characters is removing status effects: poison, disease, curses, petrification, lost limbs, drained stats, lycanthrope, etc.

Why would healing be a more essential and core part of the tactician and strategist than the cleric?

And even if it was, a non-magical replacement is unable to stand in as a replacement for a cleric/ bard/ druid/ divine soul sorcerer/ celestial warlock.

I find the party needs around 1.5 points of healing in it. Can also vary how DM designs encounters if I am not running an adventure and there is a lack of healing in the party I might run hexcrawls instead of dungeon delve. I rate the following classes

Paladin 0.5
Druid 0.75 (1.0 with Xanathars?)
Cleric 1.0
Life Domain Cleric 2.0 (maybe 1.75)
Healer Feat 1.0
Rogue (thief) with healer feat 1.5
Life cleric 1, land Druid XYZ 2.0 (maybe 2.5 at level 5+)
Life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ 2.5 (assuming goodberry, spirit of healing/aura of vitality)

A Warlord should probably be a 0.75, if you end up in a party with no magical healer or not enough of it (healer feat+ Paladin for example) and need to get rid of things like disease well that is what NPCs are for, be nice to NPC clerics.
 
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I find the party needs around 1.5 points of healing in it. Can also vary how DM designs encounters if I am not running an adventure and there is a lack of healing in the party I might run hexcrawls instead of dungeon delve. I rate the following classes

Paladin 0.5
Druid 0.75 (1.0 with Xanathars?)
Cleric 1.0
Life Domain Cleric 2.0 (maybe 1.75)
Healer Feat 1.0
Rogue (thief) with healer feat 1.5
Life cleric 1, land Druid XYZ 2.0 (maybe 2.5 at level 5+)
Life cleric 1/lore bard 6+ 2.5 (assuming goodberry, spirit of healing/aura of vitality)

A Warlord should probably be a 0.75, if you end up in a party with no magical healer or not enough of it (healer feat+ Paladin for example) and need to get rid of things like disease well that is what NPCs are for, be nice to NPC clerics.

So... if you want to play a warlord that heals, apparently you just need to take the Healer feat and you're as good as the cleric.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think people are too focused on balance first, then fun mechanics. I think the devs just needs to start with fun mechanics, then check for balance with playtest and polls. See what he did with the Order Domain for clerics in the more recent video: many warlord-themed powers, the class can actually throw a lot of granted actions and yet it doest seems broken or anything, just fun.

...

Voice of Authority (Level 1)

You can invoke the power of law to claim authority over others. Once per turn when you target an ally with a 1st level or higher spell, that ally can use their reaction to make a single melee or ranged weapon attack against a target of your choice. If a single spell targets multiple allies, only one ally gains this benefit.

A bit of theory and math.

Spirit Guardians is deemed as a clerics best option. I'm not going to dispute that. I'm going to embrace it. Spiritual Weapon is generally considered the Clerics next best damage spell option and it can be used in conjunction with spiritual weapon.

So a typical level 9 cleric can:
Turn 1. Cast Spirit Guardians
Turn 2. Cast Spiritual Weapon with a bonus action (which lets you make an attack with it) and attack.
Turn 3. Attack and use a bonus action to attack with spiritual weapon
Turn 4. Attack and use a bonus action to attack with spiritual weapon

He has enough spell slots to cover spirit guardians for a whole 6-7 combats but only enough spell slots afterwards to use spiritual weapon 3-4 times.

He can use the level 1 spells for out of combat healing.

Assuming each combat lasts 4 rounds (not a bad assumption) then he will do 3d8 + 12 (25.5 avg) per combat with spiritual weapon. 102 avg damage over a 6 encounter day the day with spiritual weapon.

He will also be able to heal with 4 spell slots at level 1 for 1d8+4 damage. total healing is 34.

-----------------------
The order cleric will forgo using spiritual weapon and have the level 9 ranged rogue attack as often as possible. A level 9 rouge will do 1d6+5+5d6 (26 avg) damage on an attack. He get's to use this feature 8 times by casting healing word at the rogue even if it isn't needed. That's a potential of 208 avg damage and it can be fairly front loaded as opposed to the spiritual weapon route. It's also more than twice as much potential healing (though the rogue won't necessarily always need healed every time you target him with a healing word to grant him an extra attack).

Both characters can also get their regular attack as damage but it and spirit guardians effectively cancels out for each build.

A difference of 208-102=106 damage per day at level 9 isn't game breaking even if it can be very front loaded, but it sure is starting to look like I have a point about off turn attack granting being problematic with a rogue in the party. Heck take out the rogue and literally have any other class in the party and the subclass probably balances out perfectly or maybe even a little on the weak side.
 
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