D&D 5E Is Expertise too good?

variant · Mar 18, 2018

iserith said:
Okay. Do you set the DC based on the approach the player gives to the goal? Or the obstacle has a set DC no matter what anyone does to overcome it? Will there always be a roll to overcome it?

Also, in your games, who decides they are making an ability check, the DMs or the players? Or do the players ask with the expectation the answer will be "Yes?"

If something would lower the DC, it would lower the DC. Such as lighting up a darkened room to avoid a trap. Just as players could accidentally avoid it or intentionally avoid it if they are aware of it or are smart enough to come up with a plan to circumvent it.

That would depend on the ability check. The player decides if they want to climb a wall, they don't decide if the floor starts to collapse under them.

Ristamar · Mar 18, 2018

Yaarel said:
Grappling is only one example of things that can go wrong when making skill checks in the context of a combat encounter.

Please use the same math for combat and skills. For the sake of making standards of difficulty consistent, thus easier for the DM to adjudicate ACs/DCs for various challenges.

DMs who are heavy in theater of the mind, and improvisation, need math to be consistent.

Are you referring to the variant options in the DMG or custom rules? Could you provide an example of a persistent problem you've experienced in your game? I'm always interested in hearing new approaches to TotM combat.

Yaarel · Mar 18, 2018

iserith said:
Do you set the DC based on the approach the player gives to the goal? Or the obstacle has a set DC no matter what anyone does to overcome it?

Me? Both.

I normally have a fixed DC for whatever challenge. But if a player thinks out-of-the-box, and comes up with a plausible way to circumvent the challenge, then I rethink what the DC to that specific approach might be.

Especially because I care about player ingenuity, I need the math to be consistent.

Yaarel · Mar 18, 2018

Ristamar said:
Are you referring to the variant options in the DMG or custom rules? Could you provide an example of a persistent problem you've experienced in your game? I'm always interested in hearing new approaches to TotM combat.

I only use official rules. If in rare circumstances I am forced to use a houserule, it means the official rules have a fatal flaw in my eyes.

I homebrew settings. This requires me to treat the more flavor-neutral SRD as the official rules, until splatbooks make homebrew more viable. I care deeply about official standards.

Edit. See my above post for theater of the mind (which I normally call mind style). Improvisation means the players can surprise the DM. If the players are thinking out-of-the-box, then their approach merits a new DC (or autowin), which forces the DM to decide a DC on the fly.

It is vital for the math to be consistent, in order for the DM to adjudicate the ‘feel’ of difficulty on the fly, easily.

iserith · Mar 18, 2018

variant said:
If something would lower the DC, it would lower the DC. Such as lighting up a darkened room to avoid a trap. Just as players could accidentally avoid it or intentionally avoid it if they are aware of it or are smart enough to come up with a plan to circumvent it.

It sounds like you set a DC for an obstacle rather than for a task a player describes the character as attempting. Is that accurate?

variant said:
That would depend on the ability check. The player decides if they want to climb a wall, they don't decide if the floor starts to collapse under them.

I'm not sure I follow your answer here. Was this a response to my question as to whether the player asks to make a check or just rolls it unprompted in your games?

Ristamar · Mar 18, 2018

Yaarel said:
I only use official rules. If in rare circumstances I am forced to use a houserule, it means the official rules have a fatal flaw in my eyes.

I homebrew settings. This requires me to treat the more flavor-neutral SRD as the official rules, until splatbooks make homebrew more viable. I care deeply about official standards.

Understood. Any chance you could still provide an example?

iserith · Mar 18, 2018

Yaarel said:
Me? Both.

I normally have a fixed DC for whatever challenge. But if a player thinks out-of-the-box, and comes up with a plausible way to circumvent the challenge, then I rethink what the DC to that specific approach might be.

Especially because I care about player ingenuity, I need the math to be consistent.

It sounds similar to what [MENTION=41293]variant[/MENTION] does, if I'm understanding him or her clearly. And you both have issues with Expertise. So that tracks. I wonder if [MENTION=12377]77IM[/MENTION] does something similar.

Me, I don't have fixed DCs. I don't ever set a DC until I hear a statement of goal and approach from the player. Only then can I decide if there is an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure. I don't have an issue with Expertise, but I'm not sure yet if that's in part because of this method.

Yaarel · Mar 18, 2018

Ristamar said:
Understood. Any chance you could still provide an example?

Examples of improvisations that require a skill check during combat.

A player has the character perform a specific athletic stunt as part of an attack action.

A player uses arcana to temporarily modify the effect of a spell.

I need the math to make sense.

Swarmkeeper · Mar 18, 2018

Yaarel said:
I normally have a fixed DC for whatever challenge. But if a player thinks out-of-the-box, and comes up with a plausible way to circumvent the challenge, then I rethink what the DC to that specific approach might be.

Especially because I care about player ingenuity, I need the math to be consistent.

This strikes me as cognitive dissonance. You want the “math to be consistent” then you consider moving the DC around based on a player’s approach, which strikes me as the opposite of consistency. You might just consider granting advantage if you really like their approach - which I suppose is like lowering the DC. However, it at least is a mechanic that is consistent with the RAW and not some math you have to noodle over on the fly.

If you feel that Expertise can give a skill bonus that is far beyond a combat “to hit” bonus, let me point out this: a skill challenge with a DC 30 is an actual thing while a Terrasque has an AC of 25.

Ristamar · Mar 18, 2018

Yaarel said:
Examples of improvisations that require a skill check during combat.

A player has the character perform a specific athletic stunt as part of an attack action.

A player uses arcana to temporarily modify the effect of a spell.

I need the math to make sense.

Hm.

At the risk of creating a tangential topic, could you explain the functional difference between house rules for skills and improvisational skill stunts?

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