Fixing the Fighter - Making room for the warlord, ranger, barbarian, rogue, and more.

Let's see what it takes to open up the fighter in order to make it nicer.

What works...
Fighting Style: We've already seen new options, so we could just make a few new ones.
3, 7, 10, 15: sub-classes are flexible. Again, just make a few new ones.
4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 19: ABI's are also flexible.
9, 13: Indomitable... it's works for anyone, but it's pretty... meh.


What needs fixed...
1: Second Wind: this need to be flexible.
2,5,11,17,20 Multi-attack: The main issue. You need a way to convert the damage into effects.

What may need fixed...
2, 17: Action Surge: Generic action is flexible, but it implicitly scales with multi-attack. So if that get's changed...




My Suggestions:

Level 1: Greatly expand Fighting Style: Choose 2 fighting styles and gain an additional choice at level 6, 9, 13, and two at level 17.
*Second Wind and Indomitable are now fighting style choices.

Level 2: Action Surge -> Combat Reflexes: At the end of a creature turns (including your own), you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack.


Level 5,11,20: Multi-Attack -> Improved Combat Reflexes: You have an additional reaction each round.


Fighting styles
*All previous options, stay the same.
*Second Wind and Indomitable stay the same.
*Unarmored Defense: When you are wearing no armor, your AC is equal to 10+Dex+Con.
*Rage: As a bonus action, you enter a rage. Any weapon damage you take is halved as long as you keep attacking]
*Brutal Critical: When you score a critical hit, maximize your base damage.
*Reckless Attack: You can take advantage on your attacks until the start of your next turn. If you do, enemies have advantage to hit you until the start of your next turn.
*Fast Movement: Your speed is increased by 5'.
*Hunter Mark: As a bonus action you can designate a creature or tracks of a creature within 30'. You deal 1d6 extra damage against that target, have advantage tracking it, and it has disadvantage to hide from you.
*Whirlwind: When you make an attack, you can attack each creature adjacent to you.
*First Aid: As a bonus action, you can let someone spend a hit die.
*Direct the Strike: When a creature you can see makes an attack, you can use your reaction to give them advantage.
*Rally: When you roll initiative, each ally who can see and hear you gains THP equal to half your level (minimum 1).
*Helper: When you take the help action, you can help all your allies within 30'.
*Battlefield Movement: As a bonus action, you can dash, disengage, or dodge.
*Slippery: When you move into cover, you can use your reaction to take the hide action.
*Sneak Attack: When you hit a creature while you have advantage, you can use your reaction to deal an extra 2d8 damage. You can use multiple reactions on the same attack, adding 2d8 for each one spent.
<and a bunch of other stuff>


Sub-Classes
*All the old ones. stay the same.
*Assassin: If you hit a creature who has not acted yet, it is a critical hit...
*Berserker: You gain the rage fighting style or another one if you already have it. You deal +1 damage when raging...
*Beastmaster: You gain a pet...
*Hunter: You gain expertise in survival...
*Tactician: You gain the direct the strike if you already it. When you use direct the strike, and the attack hits, it deals extra damage equal to your Int modifier.
*Shining Knight: You gain the rally fighting style or another if you already have it. You can add your Charisma modifier to the number of THP gained...
<and a bunch more>

Multi-classing: The attack granted from Combat Reflexes does not benefit from other multi-class features, such as rogues sneak attack, barbarians rage, or paladins improved divine smite. Though it can still benefit from spells such as elemental weapon.

By 5e standards the Fighter already suffers from being too generic and broad in concept. Just look at how narrow some of the other concepts that do rate full classes are, and not just the ones the fighter overlaps by virtue of its 'best at fighting' mandate.

Tony Vargas said:

By 5e standards the Fighter already suffers from being too generic and broad in concept. Just look at how narrow some of the other concepts that do rate full classes are, and not just the ones the fighter overlaps by virtue of its 'best at fighting' mandate.

Click to expand...

I don't see it as being any more broad than "wizard", "cleric", or "sorcerer".

But any thoughts on the proposed mechanics?

mellored said:

I don't see it as being any more broad than "wizard", "cleric", or "sorcerer".

Click to expand...

It's as broad as a hypothetical "Caster" class that encompasses all three of those, plus the Druid & Bard.

Consider this checklist:

Do you use magic? No.
Do you sneak around murdering things? No.
Do you go berserk? No.

Your only option in the PH is fighter.

That's pretty broad.

But any thoughts on the proposed mechanics?

Click to expand...

Your assessment of the existing fighter mechanics is spot-on. I might move Indomitable to "may need to be fixed," just to make it less meh.

My belief is that all fighters should, at 2nd level get Maneuvers and Superiority Dice (just 2 d6 to start with) and then as they level, they should have a choice of either an ASI at 6th and 14th levels, or an additional Maneuver and Superiority Die.

The Battle Master would of course gain more Maneuvers, more Superiority Dice and of course larger Superiority Dice as it gains levels, basically it should be the Maneuver/Superiority Dice focus variant from the core Fighter functionality.

phantomK9 said:

My belief is that all fighters should, at 2nd level get Maneuvers and Superiority Dice (just 2 d6 to start with) and then as they level, they should have a choice of either an ASI at 6th and 14th levels, or an additional Maneuver and Superiority Die.

The Battle Master would of course gain more Maneuvers, more Superiority Dice and of course larger Superiority Dice as it gains levels, basically it should be the Maneuver/Superiority Dice focus variant from the core Fighter functionality.

Click to expand...

IMO using a dice pool prevents a simple fighter.

Where as using fighting style gives you flexibility for things like +2 to hit with bows, or +1 AC, as well as dice. In addition to other maneuvers.

mellored said:

IMO using a dice pool prevents a simple fighter.

Click to expand...

Nod. What if it just adds damage, like the eFighters' Power Attack?

mellored said:

But any thoughts on the proposed mechanics?

Click to expand...

Having to choose from so many fighting styles seems like it eliminates any sort of Champion - the "take this subclass and never make a choice again" subclass. I exaggerate, the Champion still has those ASIs and a second fighting style, but still, I'd miss the option to skip having options.

What, no pure of heart: when you fight fiends or undead (or fey-who are all evil, but have exceptionally skilled publicists), your pure heart makes your weapon count as magical for purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity? Sadly the strength of ten men (the traditional benefit of being pure of heart) is a little hard to do in D&D....

Might I suggest that instead of just adding fighting styles, maybe steal the invocation idea from the warlock, and put all the barbarian, ranger, paladin, monk, and warlord (not to mention nifty social and exploration) stuff in there, and have the fighter get martial invocations at the same rate warlocks get regular invocations. That would go a long way to "fighter as caster" in terms of customization, since you pick fighting styles and martial invocations.

mellored said:

Let's see what it takes to open up the fighter in order to make it nicer.

What works...
Fighting Style: We've already seen new options, so we could just make a few new ones.
3, 7, 10, 15: sub-classes are flexible. Again, just make a few new ones.
4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 19: ABI's are also flexible.
9, 13: Indomitable... it's works for anyone, but it's pretty... meh.


What needs fixed...
1: Second Wind: this need to be flexible.
2,5,11,17,20 Multi-attack: The main issue. You need a way to convert the damage into effects.

What may need fixed...
2, 17: Action Surge: Generic action is flexible, but it implicitly scales with multi-attack. So if that get's changed...




My Suggestions:

Level 1: Greatly expand Fighting Style: Choose 2 fighting styles and gain an additional choice at level 6, 9, 13, and two at level 17.
*Second Wind and Indomitable are now fighting style choices.

Level 2: Action Surge -> Combat Reflexes: At the end of a creature turns (including your own), you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack.


Level 5,11,20: Multi-Attack -> Improved Combat Reflexes: You have an additional reaction each round

<snip>

Click to expand...

I don't mean to single you out, but it's a really common error (among forum-goers) to lead with mechanical changes without stopping to take the time and explain what assumptions or play experiences you're basing your re-design on.

I've done extensive hacking of the fighter class, and would be happy to offer my perspective or review of your work, but first: What are you observing in the game that's problematic? Is it based on theory or actual play? And what are your proposed changes intended to accomplish (i.e. what's your "big picture" goal)?