ZEITGEIST Vekeshi Excoriant prestige class

Adb0782 · Mar 22, 2018

Hello everyone,
im starting a pathfinder campaign with Zeitgeist path. I'll rule an unchained rogue. We'll start from the first level with kinda fast upleveling. The idea for the build was to make the rogue most acrobatic possible, getting the swashbuckler rogue's archetype, and using the feats combo with canny tumble and circling mongoose (at lv 8: move, use acrobatics, get free attacks, than move again and get again attacks to deal), starting from TWF and dodge, than weapon focus (kukri) (swashbuckler archetype of the rogue choose an extra war weapon proficiency) and mobility, reciliency at 4 lv, than canny tumble at 5, till spring attack (a bit useless but necessary for CM) and circling mongoose at 8. Now my question is: at this point is worth it to use the prestige class of vekeshi excoriant? It can be better multiclass into fighter? Or go into assassin prestige class? There r some prestige classes in zeitgeist that i can choose and fit better on my idea of rogue?

My rogue will be human and the stat i thought good for him buyed with 20 pt were:

str 10
dex 18
con 14
int 12
wis 11
cha12

the group is made by a barbarian, a druid, a sorcerer and my rogue.

thanks to who will answer, any help is appreciate.

PS i hope this is the right section of the forum for ask about it, bcs i already asked in "build optimization" but no one reply to my post lol.

RangerWickett · Mar 22, 2018

I'm not sure whether the build is 'strong,' but the idea of a character dual-wielding kukris, then splitting into three versions of himself and cutting down a mass of weak foes, sounds really cool. You'd still just get your normal number of attacks, but if I'm remembering the rules right, by 9th level you'd be able to make two main and two off-hand attacks. If you let your party get set up first, you might be able to have your threefold aspect run up and flank three or four enemies, and sneak attack each of them.

I think a strict reading of the wording of the Excoriant kind of doesn't let that work, but I wrote the prestige class back in 2013 when I had much less familiarity with the action economy of Pathfinder. If I did it today, I'd probably make it a swift action to activate, and have two extra versions of you manifest adjacent to you, then let you move all three versions whenever you use any action to move.

Check with your GM, of course, but I think exploding into a swirling whirlwind of blades and cutting down three guys is pretty awesome, and any GM who doesn't find a way to let that happen is missing out.

Adb0782 · Mar 22, 2018

RangerWickett said:
I'm not sure whether the build is 'strong,' but the idea of a character dual-wielding kukris, then splitting into three versions of himself and cutting down a mass of weak foes, sounds really cool. You'd still just get your normal number of attacks, but if I'm remembering the rules right, by 9th level you'd be able to make two main and two off-hand attacks. If you let your party get set up first, you might be able to have your threefold aspect run up and flank three or four enemies, and sneak attack each of them.

I think a strict reading of the wording of the Excoriant kind of doesn't let that work, but I wrote the prestige class back in 2013 when I had much less familiarity with the action economy of Pathfinder. If I did it today, I'd probably make it a swift action to activate, and have two extra versions of you manifest adjacent to you, then let you move all three versions whenever you use any action to move.

Check with your GM, of course, but I think exploding into a swirling whirlwind of blades and cutting down three guys is pretty awesome, and any GM who doesn't find a way to let that happen is missing out.

yea, that's what i was talking about, strong or not seem pretty nice to play anyway so i think im gonna do that, i just have to think about at which lv get the prestige class now. Also bcs the build (with canny tumble that if i didnt misunderstand anything should work) i thought is based on attack of opportunity, so its not so important my numer of attack, bcs anyway everytime i use acrobatics for dont be damaged from an attack of opportunity and i dont get damaged, i have an attack of opportunity. If that combo work with 3 of me moving and evading attacks of opportunity can be also very strong i think.

RangerWickett · Mar 23, 2018

I'm pretty sure you're misreading that.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/canny-tumble-combat/

Basically, if you use your movement to go through an enemy's space, then attack them, you get a bonus to your attack roll, but you don't get a free attack. You still have to spend your standard action to attack.

What Circling Mongoose lets you do is, I think, make an Acrobatics check to move 5 ft. into an enemy's space, attack them with a +2 bonus, then keep moving to get out of their space.

I don't know what feat or ability you think is granting you an attack of opportunity.

Lylandra · Mar 23, 2018

Hm, and there I was, reading the PrC a year ago and then wrote it off because I thought Threefold presence had more drawbacks than benefits (unless you were trying to follow three fleeing enemies or harassing three different casters/ranged opponents with your AoOs). You still get only one standard action for your whole three-fold character after your move after all.

Thinking about the Zeitgeist Prestige classes, they work much better in their incarnation of the 4e paragon paths in my opinion. As the campaign actually promises you to get your sweet 20th level perk in Pathfinder (which is rather rare), it feels like you lose more than you gain. Especially as a caster. Even if they offer some really great fluff and utility options.

Also, they suffer a bit from the fact that the theme feats are not class specific (and they shouldn't be!) which makes designing a PrC for a certain feat a tough task. In my opinion, they'd work so much better as enhancements of your theme feat which unlock on an every-soandso-level basis, giving you a thematic progression in addition to your class and thus rooting you deeper into the setting.

Regarding your build: While your skirmisher rogue is a really cool idea, I have to agree that uncanny tumble and circling mongoose don't grant you AoOs. You do get a benefit from uncanny because you can deny your opponent's dex bonus which enables you to sneak attack them without a flanking buddy and with a bonus to your hit.

What would work is the swashbuckler's (the hybrid class, not the rogue archetype) parry&riposte where you could strike back as an immediate after you parry an AoO.

I'd also recommend you daredevil's softpaws which are rather cheap and complement your build nicely.

Adb0782 · Mar 24, 2018

Yea i totally misreaded the feat lol. At this point im not sure about what build to use. I also was thinking about an half elf with ECB, building something like this:

Half-Elf (Blended View)

Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler)

FCO: Use the Human FCO, 1/6 Rogue Talent

STR: 10 | DEX: 18 | CON: 14 | INT: 14 | WIS: 10 | CHR: 10

(Feats)

1: Weapon Finesse

1: Combat Reflexes

1: EWP (Elven Curved Blade)

1: Skill Focus (Acrobatics)

2: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Dodge)

3: Mobility

4: Rogue Talent: Minor Magic (Detect Magic)

5: Canny Tumble

6: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Spring Attack)

6: Bonus Rogue Talent: Major Magic (Vanish)

7: Twist Away

8: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense5

9: Circling Mongoose

10: Rogue Talent: Double Debilitation

11: Improved Critical (ECB) or Critical Focus6

12: Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion

12: Bonus Rogue Talent: Opportunist

Do u think it work better like this or with the TWF?
In both case i can choose also the path of martial scientist, looks better than vekeshi isn't it? Or do u think its anyway better go straight rogue?

Adb0782 · Mar 24, 2018

Lylandra said:
Hm, and there I was, reading the PrC a year ago and then wrote it off because I thought Threefold presence had more drawbacks than benefits (unless you were trying to follow three fleeing enemies or harassing three different casters/ranged opponents with your AoOs). You still get only one standard action for your whole three-fold character after your move after all.

Thinking about the Zeitgeist Prestige classes, they work much better in their incarnation of the 4e paragon paths in my opinion. As the campaign actually promises you to get your sweet 20th level perk in Pathfinder (which is rather rare), it feels like you lose more than you gain. Especially as a caster. Even if they offer some really great fluff and utility options.

Also, they suffer a bit from the fact that the theme feats are not class specific (and they shouldn't be!) which makes designing a PrC for a certain feat a tough task. In my opinion, they'd work so much better as enhancements of your theme feat which unlock on an every-soandso-level basis, giving you a thematic progression in addition to your class and thus rooting you deeper into the setting.

Regarding your build: While your skirmisher rogue is a really cool idea, I have to agree that uncanny tumble and circling mongoose don't grant you AoOs. You do get a benefit from uncanny because you can deny your opponent's dex bonus which enables you to sneak attack them without a flanking buddy and with a bonus to your hit.

What would work is the swashbuckler's (the hybrid class, not the rogue archetype) parry&riposte where you could strike back as an immediate after you parry an AoO.

I'd also recommend you daredevil's softpaws which are rather cheap and complement your build nicely.

Ok so no prestige classes from zeitgeist, what about the assassin (just if i choose the ECB build)? Still better straight rogue? Im thinking also about drop the TWF bcs it gonna work just from lv8 with circling mongoose when he can move and have a full attack action, before ill more often attack with one weapon if i understand well, so maybe its not so worth; and also with the ECB build i can get minor and major magic that can be really usefull. I still dont know how i could misunderstand that feat, its so clear lol. Anyway, which build do u think it gonna work better for my purpose?

PS our gm dont allow hybrid classes

Andrew Moreton · Mar 24, 2018

Character buid advice

Assassin is a really bad choice because ---
1)It's rubbish
2) It is thematically complciated for a constable
3) RAW it is evil only

Frankly Unchained Rogue levels are much better than assassin levels as you get rogue talants while the assassin gets abilities which sound good but have saves anyone worth assassinating will make easily.

If you really want to boost HTH ability levels of Ranger or Fighter could be worthwhile. I was going to recomend slayer but then I noticed it was banned for strange reasons, that makes any detailed advice hard as your GM is using a strange ban list which means other things could be banned.

I personally thing the minor/major magic talants are a bit rubbish, if you want to use magic and be a rogue go either with the eldritch rogue archetype which gives you level 1-6 of wizard casting , or combine Wizard and rogue with Arcane trickster one of the few worthwhile prestige classes

Lylandra · Mar 24, 2018

Also, for theme feats: Just take the one you want to play thematically. In my experience, the combat relevance of the feats is small, but they kind of give your character a tag that enables you to use your theme in certain scenes in the campaign.

Okay this sounds more games-y than it should. Basically, a Vekeshi will be in contact with different people and have different views on the world, its people, and its problems from those of a Martial Scientist.

Adb0782 · Mar 25, 2018

Andrew Moreton said:
Character buid advice

Assassin is a really bad choice because ---
1)It's rubbish
2) It is thematically complciated for a constable
3) RAW it is evil only

Frankly Unchained Rogue levels are much better than assassin levels as you get rogue talants while the assassin gets abilities which sound good but have saves anyone worth assassinating will make easily.

If you really want to boost HTH ability levels of Ranger or Fighter could be worthwhile. I was going to recomend slayer but then I noticed it was banned for strange reasons, that makes any detailed advice hard as your GM is using a strange ban list which means other things could be banned.

I personally thing the minor/major magic talants are a bit rubbish, if you want to use magic and be a rogue go either with the eldritch rogue archetype which gives you level 1-6 of wizard casting , or combine Wizard and rogue with Arcane trickster one of the few worthwhile prestige classes

Well yea, i can still change minor and major magic maybe with reciliency and something else, maybe weapon focus. But for boost HTH ability when can be worth start to go into fighter or ranger? For how many lv? Arcane trickster its also nice but with just 20 points for the abilities its not so easy.

Ps yea for the theme feats i think ill keep the vekeshi.

ZEITGEIST Vekeshi Excoriant prestige class

Adb0782

Explorer

RangerWickett

Legend

Adb0782

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RangerWickett

Legend

Lylandra

Adventurer

Adb0782

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Adb0782

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Andrew Moreton

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Lylandra

Adventurer

Adb0782

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