One kingdom protecting another sovereign kingdom - does this make sense?

kenjib · Sep 4, 2003

I was hoping to get some input on my homebrew regarding an area that I've been trying to work out and an idea I had - for now I'll call it the Northlands in this post.

The Northlands are bordered by the kingdom of Bressia. Bressian cavalry is famed across the world. Bressia is also a vassal state of the Dorian Empire. The Imperial family, however, is a family of Bressian origins. This is all to say that Bressia is part of the Empire, but holds a special status among vassals due to family ties.

Now, for the Northlands I wanted a sovereign region - i.e. not part of the Empire. I was thinking that the region could be somewhat backward, with little economic, trade, strategic, or mineral value. What it does have, however, are the finest horses and horsemen in the world. People in this region live by their horses and die by their horses, with many herds of the great beasts roaming the steppe under the watch of their migrant owners. While the area is too unpopulated and anarchic to support much military strength or tradition, this neighbor has long been the key to Bressia's fine cavalry.

Bressian rulers have long understood that in order to keep both their supply of fine horses and the world's best trainers and commanders that they must protect not only the herds of the Northlands, but also the entire nomadic Northland way of life. For this reason, Bressia has long protected the Northlands from other military threats without requiring any compromise of the Northland's own sovereignty. The Northlanders have also been known to come to Bressia's aid at times by supplying military reinforcements (unparalleled riders that serve as auxillary scouting & raiding light cavalry, but who lack the discipline and formal training of Bressian cavalry needed for the crush of the battlefield).

Does this arrangement sound like it makes sense or is it too contrived?

Dinkeldog · Sep 5, 2003

Sounds reasonable to me. If you want other ties, you can have an artifact that provides power to the Bressians, but relies on Northlander good will (it's magic, after all). Or throw in a royal marriage of some type.

Darth Shoju · Sep 5, 2003

Sounds pretty plausable to me. Although if the Northlands are such a valuable resource of to the empire, I'd expect them to try to excercise some greater degree of control over the resource to ensure it is exploited and maintained in their favour. The Empire may not have the resources to conquer the Northlands but I'd think they'd try to arrange some sort of formal agreement. Something like they protect the Northlands while the Northlands provides them with a set number of quality mounts per year. But what you have setup is definately feasable and pretty cool to boot.

d4 · Sep 5, 2003

sure. stuff like this has happened repeatedly throughout history all over the world.

seems perfectly reasonable.

i would agree with Dinkeldog, though, that you should have some other connection between the Northlands and Bressia besides just using their horses. if the two peoples were ethnically and/or dynastically related, that could go a long way to showing why this has been a stable relationship for as long as it has.

Cecil · Sep 5, 2003

There doesn't even need to be a "friendly" back-history. It helps, but is not necessary.

The Dorian Empire may simply desire to have a buffer state to the North. The horseclans are currently non-threatening--they don't raid the Empire or otherwise pose a threat. This is a good thing--a status quo worth preserving.

In addition, if the Northlands border another nation, say Crumpus, it may be in Doria's interest to maintain another sovereign nation--particularly if it's not friendly to Crumpus, as a viable threat to Crumpus. This requires Crumpus to maintain at the very least a small guard force along the North--resources which could otherwise be brought to bear against the Dorian Empire.

Tonguez · Sep 5, 2003

Darth Shoju said:
The Empire may not have the resources to conquer the Northlands but I'd think they'd try to arrange some sort of formal agreement. Something like they protect the Northlands while the Northlands provides them with a set number of quality mounts per year. But what you have setup is definately feasable and pretty cool to boot.

Its probable that the Northlander clans have no unified central authority with which the Bressians can make a binding formal agreement and as such they maintain influence in the north through shrewd politics, finding a balance between playing the clans off against each other without offending any one in particular. The Northlanders have long associations with the Bressians including some intermarriage along the borders and a long history of mutual aid and support which so far has kept every one happy.

So yep sounds good to me

kenjib · Sep 5, 2003

You guys are such fantastic help! I agree that there should be no central authority in the Northlands. The area can also serve as a buffer state between Bressia (thus the Empire) and the real barbaric lands further north. I've got some other ideas to add into it now that I think will make the relationship really work.

The horselords of the North, long ago, raided south into the lands that are now Bressia and took rulership over the sedentary people there (this reminds me of some theories of nomadic versus sedentary people in Earth prehistory, and how it plays out in religion and myth). Thus in Bressia, you can still see different physical features in the noble bloodlines versus the peasant families. I'll give them some distinguishing traits that are more common among nobility, like striking blue eyes as compared to the brown eyes of the peasantry. These traits will be even more prevalent in the Northlands where they came from. It will be a caste system in Bressia, but with only two tiers.

This makes the Northlands the ancestral homelands of the people that rule Bressia and have also come to rule over the mighty Dorian Empire itself (they invaded and took over the throne some time past). These people may seem backward and uncivilized, but in their blood lies the seed of great warrior-kings that have gone out and conquered half the Western world.

The Northlands are also the holy land for the Nomitic Church, which is the monotheistic faith that, through Bressian influence, has become the official religion of the Empire and spread far and wide across the world. I can tie in a pilgrimage site and some holy artifacts here that reside in the Northlands. Thus it is not only practical to preserve the way of life of the Northlanders for military advantage, but also a sacred duty of the Bressian nobility -- as the Northland way of life is proclaimed sacred in the holy texts of the Nomitic Church - the deity Nomos himself being the first of the great warrior kings in mythical times who conquered the lands that are now Bressia and established the code of law that much of Western civilization is founded on. Escaping death he ascended bodily into the heavens, cast out all of the false gods of other religions, and declared himself the sole ruler over the spiritual domain.

Hmm...I can also tie in a prophecy that another warrior king will some day arise from the Northlands to spread the domain of Nomos to the rest of the world and create a second golden age -- another reason for the Bressians to preserve the archaic horseman way of life.

What a productive night! I've been trying to work out more details on Nomos too and it all seems to be coming together. Two mental blocks breached thanks to all the help. Do you think that this is an effective direction to take the idea?

Dagger75 · Sep 5, 2003

You know your situation sounds a lot like Rohan and Gondor from Lord of the Rings.

Darklone · Sep 5, 2003

Dagger75 said:
You know your situation sounds a lot like Rohan and Gondor from Lord of the Rings.

Or similar to some arrangement in Kalamar

Hi Kenjib!

I'd expect the southern families to work towards maintaining and strengthening the ties to the horsepeople. You know, sending boys to distant relatives in the north, forming bloodpacts, arranging marriages, tutoring young horseboys for some years in the southern ways and knighting them, giving merchants tax releases for trade with the horsepeople, treating horsemen as southerners concerning laws (just in case some wreck havoc in a tavern).
It could be custom to send a young Bressian knight for half a year to a tribe to improve his riding skills and perhaps earn his first true mount (and he should bring appropriate gifts). The mount by itself could be some tribal ceremony.

What about totems for the noble families, preserved in a civilized way in their families emblem? This fits nicely into the blue eyes stuff of the nobility... They yearn to preserve and strengthen their "privileged heritage".

I do love that part about the prophecy. Lots to work with.

kenjib · Sep 5, 2003

Dagger75 said:
You know your situation sounds a lot like Rohan and Gondor from Lord of the Rings.

Darklone said:
Or similar to some arrangement in Kalamar

I actually thought of the similarity to LotR after I posted. I forgot about the similarity to Kalamar though. Do you guys think it is similar in a bad way?

I really like all of those ideas Darklone. That's great stuff!