New Lion's Pounce

Lord Pendragon

First Post
The appropriate section of the SRD (from the entry for "Lion"):
Pounce (Ex): If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free
action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +7 melee, damage 1d4+2.
All right, so does a lion that makes a charge still need to hit with its bite attack to rake? Or does the charge action allow it to rake regardless? And can a lion that does not charge, but makes a full attack and hits with its bite attack also rake? If so, how many rakes does it get? Two, like when it charges? Or only one?
 

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reapersaurus

First Post
According to the Pounce description, he gets 2 Rakes anytime it charges (if it wants). (No hit on the Bite attack required)

According to the Rake description, if the lion is not pouncing, it must have started the round in a grapple to be able to Rake.

I'm presuming the Lion SRD entry is messed up, since we all know it's 2 Rake attacks, but I don't see it specifically listed in the Lion description.
Also, the entry under Improved Grab for Lion is incorrect: they must have a grapple hold at the beginning of the round to get a non-Pounce Rake off - they can't just Bite, then get Rakes.
 
Last edited:

reapersaurus said:
According to the Pounce description, he gets 2 Rakes anytime it charges (if it wants). (No hit on the Bite attack required)

According to the Rake description, if the lion is not pouncing, it must have started the round in a grapple to be able to Rake.

I'm presuming the Lion SRD entry is messed up, since we all know it's 2 Rake attacks, but I don't see it specifically listed in the Lion description.
Also, the entry under Improved Grab for Lion is incorrect: they must have a grapple hold at the beginning of the round to get a non-Pounce Rake off - they can't just Bite, then get Rakes.

I'm not 100% sure about that last part. Technically, you are correct given the SRD Improved Grab description (pasted below), but I wonder whether the intent was for Rake to work like Constrict with respect to Improved Grab, such that it was a mistake to specify that you only do damage on a hold with Constrict. Consider that the text for Improved Grab for something like a Black Pudding (which constricts) is a direct parallel to that of the Lion (which rakes). Also, the Improved Grab text says that if you don't have Constrict, then you do damage with the attack that made the hold with each successful grapple check afterwards. Clearly, that's not what applies here since then a Lion could never do Rake damage during a grapple, since it must use its bite to start a grapple. There's enough oddness going on here that I think there's a good chance that the intent was for Rake to happen automatically on a successful hold.

Here's the Improved Grab text from the Lion, then the Black Pudding, then the general ability, for comparison.

Lion:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free
action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Black Pudding:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a black pudding must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

General:
Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.
 

reapersaurus

First Post
Well, if quoting the SRD helps us understand rules better (which it seldmo does anymore), here's the relevant Rake text:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Does anyone who has the 3.5 books have any other text to add? ;)
I don't see how WotC would be so blatantly contradictory in something as simple as clarifying when Rake attacks can happen.
 

reapersaurus said:
Well, if quoting the SRD helps us understand rules better (which it seldmo does anymore), here's the relevant Rake text:Does anyone who has the 3.5 books have any other text to add? ;)
I don't see how WotC would be so blatantly contradictory in something as simple as clarifying when Rake attacks can happen.

I hadn't looked at the new Rake text, reaper. I think this clarifies it sufficiently to support your interpretation. My only complaint at this point is with the general Improved Grab text. I think that given how Rake works now, it deserves mention there along with Constrict. I.e. if you have constrict, you do damage from establishing a hold when initiating a grapple. If not, you do damage on a grapple check with the weapon used to make the grapple, unless you have the Rake ability, in which case you gain the Rake attacks in addition. I realize now that the Rake abililty to get those attacks when grappling does not depend on having Improved Grab, but a reminder in the Improved Grab text would help since as it is I feel like I have to look in a dozen places to make sure I really understand each ability.
 

Tellerve

Registered User
Rakes happen on two occasions. After a charge/pounce and if the round the lion is taking actions in has him already grappling with a foe then he can rake.

Tellerve
 

Lord Pendragon

First Post
Okay, so Pounce has been cleared up nicely. :)

With regards to the rest, say in the second round of combat, a Lion hits with 2 claws and a bite. He can (per Improved Grab) choose to initiate a grapple check. If successful, he gets a hold of his target.

But, he does not get to rake (2 rake attacks) until the following round, because he didn't begin the round with a hold?

Am I understanding this correctly?
 


reapersaurus

First Post
That's how I read the SRD Rake entry.
Of course, it's contradicted by the Lion and Tiger entries for Improved Grab, so it's anyone's call....
until WotC clarifies the text.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
 

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