Do you multiclass for raw mechanical power or for character reasons?

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
The only valid method of generating mechanics is to look at the reality of the game world and determine how that reality is expressed within the language of the game mechanics. The reason that this is a big deal is because you aren't following the proper order of operations. There's no reason for us to believe that the mechanics of the barbarian rage would be the best or most accurate mechanical representation of an aggressive shifter nature.

I thought we were close to understanding, but now you think it has to do with generating mechanics.

Reskinning does NOT generate new mechanics. That's part and parcel of the definition.

It only uses existing mechanics. Which much exist before begin reskinned.

So, can you restate your point with the starting point that reskinning is using existing mechanics instead of trying to generate and balance new mechanics?

If you tell me that this treant is a druid, and that it can't do most of the things that a druid in the book can do, then I now know far less about how the world works than I thought I did.

Like I said before, the reason I'm buying the book in the first place is because I want to know how the world works, and now you're telling me that the section on druids doesn't even accurately describe what a druid is within the game world. If the rules in the book don't sufficiently describe the game world, then the book you've sold me isn't a finished product.

Hold on a second. Please look to your Monster Manual. There are dozens of example in there of various things that are not the same as if they were built as a PC using the PC rules. That NPCs and monsters do not follow the same rules as PCs for creation is well established. 3.5 was the last edition that tried that.

The PHB only describes player characters. It explicitly does not try to encompass everything in the world. An argument that assumes the MM is not part of D&D and that all NPCs and foes in 5e must match PC classes in order for the world to be understood does not fly.
 

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Reskinning does NOT generate new mechanics. That's part and parcel of the definition.

It only uses existing mechanics. Which much exist before begin reskinned.

So, can you restate your point with the starting point that reskinning is using existing mechanics instead of trying to generate and balance new mechanics?
Re-skinning uses existing mechanics, instead of trying to generate (and/or balance) new mechanics. The main problem with re-skinning is that it tries to retro-fit new fluff onto existing mechanics, instead of generating new mechanics that would accurately reflect that new fluff; more often than not, this results in disingenuous representation.

Imagine that you have Object A which is reflected with Mechanics A. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a class, race, weapon, spell, monster, or whatever. The mechanics always reflect the object.

Now imagine that you have Object B, which is not in the game yet, but you want to introduce it as a homebrew and you're not sure what the mechanics for it should be. Our first check is to see whether Object B is close enough to an existing object that it should use the same mechanics. If you already have a longsword, and you want to introduce a katana, then you could well decide that it's close enough; you make a note that a katana uses longsword stats, problem solved.

More often than not, there won't be anything close enough, so we move on to step two: Since we've read the books and we're fluent in how the game uses mechanics to represent various objects, we figure out how to translate Object B into Mechanics B by inference. Let's say that we want some way of representing shifter bloodlines, but none of the Eberron stuff has been updated for 5E yet. Well, we know that it's something you're born with, and it doesn't really get more powerful with age and experience (based on our understanding of that reality, as it was translated into mechanics of the previous editions), so that means it should be a race option. And we know how races work in 5E (bonus to one stat, sub-races that give bonuses to one other stat, one moderately-useful passive or limited-use activated ability, and maybe a couple of ribbons), so it's short work. We now have mechanics that honestly and accurately reflect that reality.

To contrast, if you re-skin a barbarian rage to reflect a shifter bloodline, you're not getting the right answer. Your new Mechanics B are not an honest reflection of Object B (shifter bloodline), as determined by the best of our ability to honestly interpret how the world works. Your new Mechanics B are just a reflection of Object A (barbarian rage), which has nothing at all to do with Object B. It's balanced, sure, because it doesn't change any of the mechanics from if you were actually modeling a raging barbarian; but it doesn't mean anything, because you had to artificially contrive the correlation between the reality and its reflection.
Hold on a second. Please look to your Monster Manual. There are dozens of example in there of various things that are not the same as if they were built as a PC using the PC rules. That NPCs and monsters do not follow the same rules as PCs for creation is well established. 3.5 was the last edition that tried that.

The PHB only describes player characters. It explicitly does not try to encompass everything in the world. An argument that assumes the MM is not part of D&D and that all NPCs and foes in 5e must match PC classes in order for the world to be understood does not fly.
NPC classes are just PC classes that have been trimmed onto a note card for ease-of-play. If you wanted to accurately represent that level 9 Mage NPC, you would write them out as a full level 9 Wizard; but if you don't care about minor loss of accuracy, in order to vastly speed up the creation process, then it's close enough. This is explained in the DMG.

The PHB describes the part of the world that is relevant to players, like how dwarves and druids work; it is the definitive source for how those things work within the world, unless the DM goes out of their way to change them. Things in the Monster Manual are also a part of the world, if the DM decides to include them. If you have orcs in your world, then the Monster Manual tells us how orcs work, unless the DM goes out of their way to change them. If this world has orcs that are druids, then refer back to the PHB, which is the book that tells us how druids work. If the world has orcs that are shamans, and a shaman isn't close enough to either a druid or a cleric for them to just use the same rules, then the DM has to determine which mechanics to use to best represent that reality (based on their understanding of what a shaman is, their fluency in how 5E uses mechanics to reflect class abilities, and possibly the streamlining process by which a full class is summarized down to a note card for ease-of-play).
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
One of the most mechanically powerful multiclass dips in the game -- Warlock 2 -- is also one of the easiest to justify from a roleplaying standpoint. Because it is easy as your PC going -- I need more power. So I'll make a contract with [insert name of entity here]. It's basically a shortcut to gaining a lot of power, both in a metagaming and in-character sense. Whereas suddenly developing wizard abilities, which supposedly takes years of hard study (where did you get this time while you were adventuring?) seems odd from a roleplaying standpoint.

One reason I don't like wizards. n_n

You don't have the slightest idea what reskinning is, do you?

Reskinning is using a different description that fits the same mechanics.

But both involve disregard of the official fluff?(The thing I have a problem with? )

Your example above doesn't fit the mechanics. So no, it's not allowed.

But she's a battlemaster with warlord maneuvers?
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION], if I was designing the game, I wouldn't use a lot of mechanics even for the existing fluff. Why can a barbarian rage a certain amount of times per day, regardless if they are one right after each other or all spread out?

These mechanics start with doing imperfect jobs of modelling the narrative already. But what they have going for them is that they are tested against all of the other rules and balanced.

So, Assumption #1 is that using existing rules means a lot less work in generating and balancing rules. So, if we are introducing new fluff, and it's a reasonable match for the existing rules, regardless if there might be a slightly better rule out there somewhere that would need to be designed, tested, and balanced against other options, then Assumption #1 say use the pre-tested rules that were playtested and are used at a scope out of the reach of any individual table.

In other words:

A) Trying to hold new fluff to a higher threshold than existing fluff is a non-started. There is a level of abstraction and a level of its-a-game for existing rules/narrative pairing, and the bar for that is at a moderate height, not a "best of our ability, if it's possible to tweak it we must block until then".

B) Playtested rules that have been balanced against other options beat having to develop new rules hands down.

As for your second part, just opened up my MM to the NPCs section and there is Druid. Great find, it's got the exact name. There is no chance for player confusion - this is absolutely a druid. Oh wait, it's 4th level by spells known, but it doesn't have wildshape. Please lay down the idea that the PHB is an exclusive description that can not have anything in it widened by the other official books. It is demonstrably not true.
 

A) Trying to hold new fluff to a higher threshold than existing fluff is a non-started. There is a level of abstraction and a level of its-a-game for existing rules/narrative pairing, and the bar for that is at a moderate height, not a "best of our ability, if it's possible to tweak it we must block until then".

B) Playtested rules that have been balanced against other options beat having to develop new rules hands down.
New rules should be held to the same standards of abstraction and playability. What you are describing is sacrificing that on the altar of balance, which is the big mistake of fourth edition. Balance may be important, but it's not more important than the internal consistency of the model.
As for your second part, just opened up my MM to the NPCs section and there is Druid. Great find, it's got the exact name. There is no chance for player confusion - this is absolutely a druid. Oh wait, it's 4th level by spells known, but it doesn't have wildshape. Please lay down the idea that the PHB is an exclusive description that can not have anything in it widened by the other official books. It is demonstrably not true.
It doesn't have wildshape, because wildshape adds an inordinate amount of complexity that is unlikely to show up during the game. Just because it's not in their abbreviated write-up in the MM, that doesn't mean they can't do it. Those abbreviated NPC notes are only there for convenience at the table.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
New rules should be held to the same standards of abstraction and playability. What you are describing is sacrificing that on the altar of balance, which is the big mistake of fourth edition. Balance may be important, but it's not more important than the internal consistency of the model.

No, you are pre-judging that all reskinning compromises the integrity of the model. Since I've already shown the low bar of some of the internal narrative to model fits, and shows equal or better fits with reskinning, I yet again refute this.

It doesn't have wildshape, because wildshape adds an inordinate amount of complexity that is unlikely to show up during the game. Just because it's not in their abbreviated write-up in the MM, that doesn't mean they can't do it. Those abbreviated NPC notes are only there for convenience at the table.

*snork* Okay ... so the PHB is the ultimate arbiter of the world ... and anything that dares to change it is wrong ... and if other core books contradict it you just rationalize it in. "They have this major ability officially, they just don't write it up."

At this point I don't know what more to say that could have a chance to convince you.

Thank you for the discussion, I think we both enjoy our games and tables even if we may not agree on these points.
 

No, you are pre-judging that all reskinning compromises the integrity of the model. Since I've already shown the low bar of some of the internal narrative to model fits, and shows equal or better fits with reskinning, I yet again refute this.
It's entirely possible to re-skin something without damaging the integrity of the model, as I mentioned before with the katana example. You just can't have free reign to re-skin without regards for internal consistency, or else you get the sort of nonsense that 4E fans actually ended up with, like a character wielding a sign post as though it was a maul.
Okay ... so the PHB is the ultimate arbiter of the world ... and anything that dares to change it is wrong ... and if other core books contradict it you just rationalize it in. "They have this major ability officially, they just don't write it up."
I'm just saying, if my PC druid comes across an NPC druid who can't wildshape, then I'm going to have some questions for them. Like, what's wrong with them, that they can't do such a basic thing that all druids should know how to do?

This sort of thing showed up all the time in 4E, where PCs and NPCs used strictly different mechanics (AEDU vs recharge), and it was another aspect of what was wrong with that edition - sacrificing too much internal consistency for the sake of playability.
 

If you want to call those games RPGs, then that's a massive unfounded assumption of your own.

An RPG where the mechanics of the game do not reflect the reality of the game world is not an RPG in any meaningful sense of the term. It has merely mis-appropriated that label for the purposes of marketing.

There are an entire subset of RPGs defined that way - the one I am most familar with is HERO/Champions. Because of the variety of types of things that can be done by superpowers, the mechanics say you have an ablity to do 10d6 of damage - you define whethere it is energy or physical (the two mecahnical damage types) and then add the special effect - utilizing the same ability allows for Human Torch's flame blast, Superman's heat vision, Thor's thrown hammer, Cyclop's eyeblast, Nightwing's escrima sticks, Sandman's sand blast, Hydro's water blast etc etc. This does not mean the world is not defined, or have a shared universe. It does mean that some of that work is up to the GM and players, rather than the game book itself - which does allow a lot more freedom; at the cost of more work for the group.

About the only thing I liked about 4E was the encouragement to refluff things. I wanted a monk - the GM had me play a ranger, changed a couple skills, gave me a weapon of "martial arts" that did middling damage, and the powers were renamed - the 2 sword strike - whatever it was called was now "Twin fists of Kao Lung" and I had a monk.

In a game where the fluff is tied more strongly to the system (as in 5E), it can still be a useful tool to help a player realize his character concept with very little worry about balance.
 
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Fauchard1520

Adventurer
Usually I found very little reason in multiclassing at all, for either of those.

For real? What if you want a bear-barian, that goes into a rage in bear form? What about the build I mentioned in the OP where you go all-in on eldritch blast alpha strikes? There are some things that you can ONLY do with multiclassing.
 

thundershot

Adventurer
I figure out my character concept first and then determine what classes (if any) I need to multiclass in order to get as close to my character concept as possible while still maintaining a usable character in the field.
 

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