Disadvantages of Advantage - Page 4
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhaelen View Post
    Even if true, WoD managed to eliminate all of the problems with Shadowrun's system. I'm not sure Shadowrun deserves any credit here.
    I wouldn't go that far. At best, it traded out some of the weirdness from Shadowrun for all new weirdness of its own. If I had to choose between the rulesets, agnostic to setting, I would definitely go with Shadowrun for several reasons. (Primarily, because the stats are much less ambiguous.)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ekyu View Post
    "The basic mechanic of rolling a number of dice equal to attribute+skill, and checking each die individually against a variable target difficulty in order to get a number of successes, was what was copied. "

    While afaik Shadowrun was the first rpg to involve pools of dice vs thresholds (comparative dice pool vs additive dice pool)
    Nope. Space 1889, 2 years earlier. But in S 1889, it's only used in combat.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    The basic mechanic of rolling a number of dice equal to attribute+skill, and checking each die individually against a variable target difficulty in order to get a number of successes, was what was copied. The only real innovation is that they switched from d6 to d10, so you could have more variance in the target numbers without having to explode the sixes.

    No credit for innovation on stat generation methods; that's the first thing that anyone can house rule trivially. Minor credit is given for using different stats and skills, but some of that is just because the setting is different. Full credit for innovation on all of the different powers and clans and whatnot, but that's not really a "rule" thing. And the damage calculations were also different, as you say.

    Over all, Vampire shows all of the signs of being a Shadowrun heartbreaker, except in that it actually managed to surpass its source material in terms of popularity for a while. You could make a strong comparison to Palladium Fantasy, which was a D&D heartbreaker, but was also more popular in the nineties. That doesn't make it any less derivative. Nor do I mean to cast aspersions on World of Darkness, by any means; being derivative is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that credit for the basic system mechanics - what people think of as "the White Wolf dice pool mechanic" - belongs solely to Shadowrun.
    In other words, you claim plagiarism for a method and ignore the actual rules. I see your No True Scotsman fallacy.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aramis erak View Post
    In other words, you claim plagiarism for a method and ignore the actual rules. I see your No True Scotsman fallacy.
    Don't confuse content with mechanics. The rules of the game are like the language that the game is written in, and that's why it's so easy for anyone to pick up a d20-derived game if they've already played one. I know how Vampire works, on a mechanical level, because I've played Shadowrun.

    I'm also not claiming plagiarism. I'm claiming that it's derivative. Maybe you think that's close enough, but that's on you. Personally, I would say that most of the best stuff is derivative work that's been polished. The best video game is one which is heavily derivative of other good video games. The best novel ever written is technically fan-fiction. Derivative isn't inherently bad.

  5. #35
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    I find it boring and too simple, it works well in some circumstances but not always, I'm happy we still have difficulty classes for skills.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saelorn View Post
    Don't confuse content with mechanics. The rules of the game are like the language that the game is written in, and that's why it's so easy for anyone to pick up a d20-derived game if they've already played one. I know how Vampire works, on a mechanical level, because I've played Shadowrun.

    I'm also not claiming plagiarism. I'm claiming that it's derivative. Maybe you think that's close enough, but that's on you. Personally, I would say that most of the best stuff is derivative work that's been polished. The best video game is one which is heavily derivative of other good video games. The best novel ever written is technically fan-fiction. Derivative isn't inherently bad.
    And now you bring out a shifting the goal posts fallacy.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aramis erak View Post
    And now you bring out a shifting the goal posts fallacy.
    I have literally no clue what you're talking about. You're the one accusing me of accusing Vampire of plagiarism. I'm only accusing it of being derivative. Which it is, to a significant degree.

  8. #38
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    When you're using a single die for resolution, you can't have much depth, at all. Enough modifiers to provide some depth, and they overwhelm the die.

    Depth, interest & meaningful options have to come from something other than the d20, it's modifiers & how often you roll it.
    Thus, D&D lacks those qualities in regards to skill use and weapon combat, delivering them, instead, in class features, spells, & magic items (Other than +X items, of course).
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Sunday, 20th May, 2018 at 02:04 AM.

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