D&D 5E Can a Critical Hit miss?

Swarmkeeper · May 10, 2018

Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide. Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention. PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails. Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1. PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success. PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20. Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

How do you, as DM, rule that Crit?

The Crimson Binome · May 10, 2018

Something seems off in this scenario. Isn't there a massive penalty for trying to hide immediately after making an attack?

Wiseblood · May 10, 2018

No hit. I say this because if you remove the foliage and darkness the character was simply attacking an empty square. You could say, your bolt flies true to the point where the attack came from, if there was anyone there surely they must have been hit. You could even let them roll damage but now the characters must investigate.

Mistwell · May 10, 2018

DM Dave1 said:
Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

Bad ruling, for two reasons:

1) When you attack, you come out of hiding. To hide again, they will need to move and possibly expend another action.

Bottom line, there is no "Unbeknownst to anyone in the party...the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot". The party knows where they were, and knows they left that spot (though in theory they could have come back to that spot hidden, if there is still cover).

2) Even if you allow a re-hide in that scenario, I would inform the party before they roll an attack that their perception tells them where the enemy was, but they're unsure if the enemy moved from that spot or not. By simply calling for an attack role after telling the party they spotted where the foe was, I think you were misleading them into using their action based on information they reasonably relied on from you as the DM.

iserith · May 10, 2018

DM Dave1 said:
Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide. Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention. PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails. Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1. PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success. PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20. Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

How do you, as DM, rule that Crit?

Based on the information you provided:

The noise means the creature making the noise is not hidden. PC1 moves ahead and should be aware of enemy even if he or she can't see it - no Perception check needed.

If crossbow bolts are about to fly, we have to go into initiative and there's no surprise since noise was established initially (and presumably the PCs were not being stealthy).

Enemies appear to go first initiative in your scenario. They attack and move away. Presumably they are like goblins and can take the Hide action as a bonus action or the like. Otherwise, they can't because they can't both take the Attack action and Hide action.

PC2 gets admonished for asking questions instead of declaring actions. She is then told that the assailants are hidden and she would have to guess where they are and attack or take the Search action to find them. If she takes the Search action and succeeds on the check, she can knows where the enemies are (even if she can't see them), but that's her action for the turn. If she decides to attack instead of the Search action, she has to guess where to attack. If she chooses well, she can attack at disadvantage in which case that 20 might be wasted. If she chooses poorly, there's no roll required - she takes the Attack action and just misses.

ad_hoc · May 10, 2018

I would never ask for a roll in a situation where failure was automatic.

Shiroiken · May 11, 2018

The perception check should have shown them where the creatures are, not where they were, as the location of the shot should have been somewhat obvious (known exactly by RAW). If the perception check failed I would allow the attack, even with no chance of hitting, since the players don't know if the enemy is there or not (same as shooting at the spot of an invisible & hidden enemy). If they investigate they would find the arrow/bolt embedded in a tree at head height, showing a kill shot if the enemy had still been there.

Wiseblood · May 11, 2018

@ Mistwell & Shiroiken this would be true if the PC were capable of seeing the enemies and the enemies were firing at characters that they could see. (Not sure how blindsense works) If I read the OP correctly the player asked where the shot came from. Which could be percieved by the PC while allowing for the possibility that the PC could not for whatever reason see the crossbowman.

The sound came from off the trail ahead. I understand that initiative could have been rolled but what then? The PC's may or may not take actions appropriate to combat. Continuing to investigate or even ignoring the sounds altogether. Surprize is easier and less punitive than letting the PC's have the rope to hang themselves with.

That might be pixel-bitching on my part though. I do think your assumptions are reasonable.

jaelis · May 11, 2018

ad_hoc said:
I would never ask for a roll in a situation where failure was automatic.

Trying to attack a hidden enemy is one of the few situations where I would. Otherwise you reveal right away that they guessed the wrong spot.

Another example would be casting firebolt against a creature the players did not know was immune to fire.

Bawylie · May 11, 2018

I know we generally take the position that there’s no wrong way to play D&D, but this example is the wrong way to play D&D. Or so very close to it.

As to how I would adjudicate the attack roll? If I had asked for an attack roll and there was a hit, there ought to be damage. But really I’d have to go back and untangle this knot from the start.

To begin with, I tend not to make rulings on rolls themselves. IMO the purpose of the roll is to determine the outcome of an action in cases that I don’t already know the outcome. IOW, if you make an attack that can’t possibly hit anything, there would not be an attack roll.

Second I wouldn’t be asking you to roll perception at arbitrary intervals. I adjudicate your actions, but I don’t mandate them. So I’m not asking for a roll unless you declare some kind of action.

I think you’ll find if your DM can refine the way they adjudicate actions and learn when to most effectively use dice (and when not to) you won’t run into these weird situations where you critically hit nothing.