D&D 3E/3.5 How viable is a Elven Fighter Mage in 3.5

jarlaxlecq · Sep 16, 2003

I just recently started replaying Baldur's Gate 2 (what a great game) anyway it got me back in 2E rules and reminded how much i liked to play an Elven Fighter/Mage. How viable would they be using 3.5edition rules. Lets see some builds at low, medium and high levels, with liberal use of FRs material and Prestige classes. Even include items etc. Thanks in advance for posting

mikebr99 · Sep 16, 2003

jarlaxlecq said:
I just recently started replaying Baldur's Gate 2 (what a great game) anyway it got me back in 2E rules and how much i liked to play an Elven Fighter/Mage. How viable would they be using 3.5edition rules. Lets see some builds at low, medium and high levels, with liberal use of FRs material and Prestige classes. Even include items etc. Thanks in advance for posting

This is exactly what the Eldritch Knight PrC is for... YMMV

Mike

DM2 · Sep 16, 2003

Spellsword and bladesinger being the other 2 options, assuming the conversion to 3.5 isn't too rocky for those classes (don't know why it would be off the top of my head).

DM2

FrankTrollman · Sep 16, 2003

The answer is:

Not very.

The Eldritch Knight is a start - but he's not really a Fighter in any meaningful sense of the word. He's more like a Ray Spell specialist.

In order to qualify for Eldritch Knight you need at least 5 levels of Wizard and one level of a Warrior class (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger).

Then you get one level where you get a Bonus feat and a BAB, and no spellcasting, and then the entire rest of the class is gaining spellcasting and BAB. Throughout the whole time you are in the class you are getting d6 hit points.

But the thing is, a d6 hit points and a BAB isn't advancing like a Fighter - it isn't even advancing like a Warrior.

At 12th level, you'll have a Caster Level of 10, a BAB of +9, and 43.5 hit points (plus 12 times Con Bonus). You'll also have 2 bonus feats (or one bonus feat and the first level bonus of some other fighting class) - but for fighting purposes that's going to be largely subsumed in the fact that you are short one magic feat over a Wizard and will in any case want to pump up your wizarding with at least two of your normal feats.

So really, you fight like a 12th level Aristocrat, at best. A 12th level Aristocrat has no bonus feats (but can spend them all on fighting, so he's got at least as many combat feats as the Eldritch Knight), a BAB of +9, and 57.5 hit points (plus ten times your Con Modifier).

And you cast magic like a 10th level wizard. You are down one magical feat for not having level 10 in wizard, but you got an extra feat at character level 12 to make up for it.

So a 12th level "Eldritch Knight" has the choice to fight like a 12th level Aristocrat or cast magic like a 10th level Wizard. Or you could be a 12th level Aristocrat, and take the Leadership feat and be followed around by a Wizard two levels lower than yourself.

Better yet, you could take 12 levels of a Player Character Class and still take Leadership and be followed around by the 10th level Wizard.

And unfortunately, Spellsword and Bladesinger aren't even that good.

-Frank

jgsugden · Sep 16, 2003

EK is a workable fighter/wizard character if you keep a few things in mind.

There are three main advantages for an EK over a fighter with a wizard cohort. One is the ability to use spells that only target the caster. Another is that as an EK you do not need to fear that your cohort spell source will be killed. The third is that your combat spells come from you, not from a cohort in a different location. Of course, having the cohort has some advantages as well.

There are a large number of spells that are useful in combat that only target the caster. Many of them, however, can be duplicated with other devices. For instance, shield is a nice spell that can only benefit the caster, but a dancing magic large shield can give you the same benefit. Blink can only target the caster, but a potion of blink can give the same benefit for a small cost. This turns out to be a small benefit in the end, but not useless.

One big problem regarding the cohort idea is that cohorts are generally pretty vulnerable. They are of a lower level than you by at least 2 levels. If you're in a 10th level party, your cohort is 8th level. If you come across a tough battle, perhaps CR 12 or 13, your cohort might be destroyed if the foe gets the jump on the party. Then, you're trapped without your spells.

The EK also gets to deliver spells insteaf of waiting for his cohort to do so. This has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that you will be closer to foes that create distnict threats to you than your cohort will be. That means it will be easier for you to deliver spells with short ranges. It will also be easier for you to deliver spells when there are visual obstructions that diminish sight for targetting.

Of course, a cohort has advantages. Primarily, they can take actions while you do other things. The greatest limitation in D&D is the number of actions you may take. Having a cohort do some of them makes life a lot easier. In addition, a cohort can move around to get a better angle for firing spells while you hold a line.

EK is a workable prestige class, but other ideas work.

Thanee · Sep 16, 2003

Ok, this is a bit off, but...

Cleric makes a good Fighter/Mage still!

Bye
Thanee

Nifft · Sep 16, 2003

Thanee said:
Cleric makes a good Fighter/Mage still!

In 3.5e, Druid is pretty darn good too. Very Battle-Witch flavorful.

-- N

Kae'Yoss · Sep 17, 2003

FrankTrollman said:
And unfortunately, Spellsword and Bladesinger aren't even that good.

-Frank

Don't listen to him, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Bladesingers are very potend and extremely funny to play. You won't get a fireball-slinging, sword-swinging vessel of pure destruction - just a sword-swinging vessel of pure destruction.

The spells the bladesinger gets from his list serve one purpose: Increase the melee power of the bladesinger. Stuff like haste, mirror image, fire shield, improved invisibility, shield, true strike. He can also take 10 when casting defensively, cast one spell as a free action on top of a full attack, ignore arcane spell failure in light armor, get his intelligence bonus to AC, and get one additional attack (with the usual -2 on all attacks). The version in Races of Faerûn is a little more general, allowing your choice of either longsword or rapier and allowing bladesinger talents with all arcane spells. Bladesingers get d8, full BAB, good ref and will, and 1-4th level spells. They get 2+ skills and some bonus feats.

(If you make a wizard/bladesinger, you can still have the fireball-slinging, but you would have to wait longer to enter the PrC).

niteshade6 · Sep 17, 2003

I think an eldritch knight probably works better as an archer. You keep a high BAB, and you don't have to worry about your low hit points. The extra feats are quite useful too. The only problem is that the best personal combat enhancing spells are usualy defensive (blink, displacement, mirror image) and archers usualy have less need of them.

Cohorts always require special DM approval and permission, so it's probably not realistic to list them as a real alternative. Most DMs aren't going to allow everyone to have their own personal NPC buff caster. Potions are also annoying because they generaly take a move, and a free hand to draw, and an action to drink, resulting in a full round action. If you have a sword and shield in hand and want to drink a potion, it's even worse. You have to drop your sword, draw your potion, drink your potion, and then pick up your sword. So it takes a full round action and a move, plus you draw an AoO when you pick your sword up. Add the expense in, and the fact that you probably don't have access to unlimited amounts, and that's also probably not a realistic alternative.

Probably the best way to go for a melee type is to maximize damage potential and not worry about regular defence (ie use a greatsword and no shield). Then use spells like mirror image and displacement so that your lack of ac becomes a non issue. This also can work well for bards.

Shadeus · Sep 17, 2003

Spellsword is an interesting PrC. It allows for the reduced armor penalties which is fairly huge. Give one some mithril armor to reduce those arcane spell failure penalties, and suddenly you are a fully armored wizard. Granted, your caster level could use some work (because its only advancement every other level), but you make up for it somewhat with cool abilities.

EK is a good niche fighter/mage as well. Frank is right. You basically give up two levels of spellcasting and a gain two feats out of the fighter impressive list of feats. But you are better off than say a multiclass fighter and wizard. You could start as a Ftr 2/Wiz 5/EK 1 and gain 3 fighter feats, but then that costs you 3 levels of spellcasting. It just depends on what is the focus of the character. Hit points will be a problem, but you can use bear's endurance for that (although its poor duration these days doesn't make it very attactive).

Of course, if you are a fighter/mage, you can hardly expect to be the only frontline fighter and last very long.