D&D 4E Conan vs the Swarms of Soldiers.

Garthanos · May 15, 2018

Picturing Conan atop a heap of enemies...

hmmmm I think that brings up some questions.

One might be are characters (non mages) good enough at dealing with minions? 4 minions == 1 hero (not over optimized) ?
Could/Should "normal" soldiers instead of minions be swarms and minions a step up from that?

pemerton · May 15, 2018

I've done a lot of "minions as swarms", for paragon and epic tier PCs.

Eg hobgoblin phalanxes; hordes of demons; etc.

At mid-Heroic I also had a hyena pack as a swarm.

Garthanos · May 15, 2018

Perhaps I am thinking that battlerager vigor needed a different kind of nerf (one that didnt undermine minion trashing maybe), but that is a specific case and I am thinking the more general sense.

MwaO · May 15, 2018

Most classes have some sort of close burst or multi-attack option - Fighters have Cleave or Dual Strike as examples, both of which can take down two minions at-will. Barbarians have a couple of level 1 encounter powers, etc...and their own two weapon at-will power, etc...

Tony Vargas · May 15, 2018

Fighters can chew through minions with Cleave & the like, and sweep minions and do full damage to swarms with Close attack powers. A martial controller could do with more such, of course.

I've often used swarm mechanics for formations of soldiers, throngs of zombies, and even one time, schools of suahagin. It's a fun way to bring lower-level critters back to relevance at much higher level. You minionize them (convert them up about 8 levels, giving about the same exp value as they had as standards), then group the minions into swarms (which is a little less clear: swarms can have a huge number of members,...).

(Psi)SeveredHead · May 16, 2018

A swarm of soldiers feels powerful, like a real challenge, but things can get ludicrous if you can knock them prone, slide them (you can with AoE powers such as a lot of monk powers) and so on.

From descriptions of Conan fighting, he is always moving to avoid getting hit so I don't think a swarm, that deals auto-damage, is right for this kind of conflict. I think Conan is simply taking on a large number of lower-level minions. They rarely hit, as his defenses are significantly higher than their attack rolls. Conan may also not grant combat advantage when he's being flanked (I think there's a feat for that), so it's difficult for the minions to use teamwork against him.

They're minions and their defenses are low compared to his attack roll, so he can kill them quickly; after one or two rounds of combat he's not feeling too threatened (unless more waves of minions appear). I don't think he's using a close burst power, but Cleaving Strike, which basically lets him kill two minions per round, and he can kill more if they make the mistake of moving without shifting.

Garthanos · May 16, 2018

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
A swarm of soldiers feels powerful, like a real challenge, but things can get ludicrous if you can knock them prone, slide them (you can with AoE powers such as a lot of monk powers) and so on.

Happens all the time in the wire-fu cinema I think... a whole group going down like bowling pins (aka I think that is well within the intended for monk prowess

), At base I see you smash into one they flail back trying to maintain balance and their allies are disrupted too. Past a certain point I think you are probably right about ludicrous though I also think there is a middle ground. A video game Vindictus captured that middle ground I think it really makes martial awesome.

Larger numbers of lower level minions what would be your guidelines if someone wanted to use those ... does the experience point economy work?

Garthanos · May 16, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
Fighters can chew through minions with Cleave & the like .

That and Dual strike which Mwao mentions really does not seem like a lot of powers out of the many ie you definitely have to select for it.

Garthanos · May 16, 2018

By the numbers can a lone level 1 fighter who did take cleave take down 8 level 1 minions? (And how badly would they eat one who didnt have it)
Now without some choke point limiting their attacks I think the answer is still no... using the battle field well however makes all the difference.

If he can choke point them down to only 2 attacking per round.... in 3 rounds he would kill 4 and take only 3 hits in 6 rounds the other 4 would go down and he would be on the edge having taken 6 minion class wounds ie still ouch but pass the potion or dwarven second wind.