Dual Wielder vs. Polearm Master

Dausuul · May 18, 2018

So, I was thinking: AC bonus aside, is there any mechanical reason to take the Dual Wielder feat instead of Polearm Master?

(If your response to this is "Because you want to play a dual wielder and you should only care about concept and not mechanics"... well, post that if you must, but don't expect a response, at least from me. I'm interested in mechanical balance here.)

For a character with Extra Attack, the damage dice are the same: 3d8 for Dual Wielder, 2d10+1d4 for Polearm Mastery, both averaging 13.5. However:

Advantages of Polearm Master

Adds your stat bonus to the "off-hand" attack.
[Edited, per Caliban] All of your attacks have reach.
Free opportunity attack when a foe enters your reach.
Can be used with Great Weapon Master.
Front-loads your damage into your "main-hand" attack, so if you need to use your bonus action for something else, you don't sacrifice as much damage output.
You only need one magic weapon to boost all of your attacks.

Advantages of Dual Wielder

+1 AC.

Am I missing something here? I mean, I know Polearm Master is a powerhouse feat and Dual Wielder... isn't, but this seems really extreme.

Satyrn · May 18, 2018

When I was considering Dual Wielder for my gnome battlemaster (dex based), could see no reason to take it over a Dex boost. All it really would have done was boost a few numbers that the Dex boost would too.

Maybe it's in some way better on a Str character, but I doubt it. I just don't see myself ever considering it again for any character.

Spohedus · May 18, 2018

If players are playing through WotC adventures, I would wager you will find more magical 1d8 one handed weapons than polearms. That's a big deal when so many things after 5th level are resistant to non-magical weapons. If you can get your hands on a nice magical polearm, this is obviously irrelevant.

CTurbo · May 18, 2018

There is no denying the PAM is superior to TWF and Dual Wielding in general, but the Dual Wielding feat is there for the players who actually want a TWF character. It does add a boost to both damage and AC so it's not a useless feat.

Another possible advantage to Dual Wielder is that it can be used with a Dex character whereas PAM means Str only. I've seen a Dex Ranger take DW as well as a Swashbuckler Rogue.

Tales and Chronicles · May 18, 2018

Dausuul said:
So, I was thinking: AC bonus aside, is there any mechanical reason to take the Dual Wielder feat instead of Polearm Master?

(If your response to this is "Because you want to play a dual wielder and you should only care about concept and not mechanics"... well, post that if you must, but don't expect a response, at least from me. I'm interested in mechanical balance here.)

For a character with Extra Attack, the damage dice are the same: 3d8 for Dual Wielder, 2d10+1d4 for Polearm Mastery, both averaging 13.5. However:

Advantages of Polearm Master

Adds your stat bonus to the "off-hand" attack.

All but one of your attacks is made with reach.

Free opportunity attack when a foe enters your reach.

Can be used with Great Weapon Master.

Front-loads your damage into your "main-hand" attack, so if you need to use your bonus action for something else, you don't sacrifice as much damage output.

You only need one magic weapon to boost all of your attacks.

Advantages of Dual Wielder

+1 AC.

Am I missing something here? I mean, I know Polearm Master is a powerhouse feat and Dual Wielder... isn't, but this seems really extreme.

No. Think your evaluation are spot on. To be honest, Dual Wielder is missing a feature to make it a good feat for a specific combat style, just like Archery has SS, Sword and Board as (had?) Shieldmaster etc. I suggest people add a feature that support the narrative and power of this fighting style. Some examples:
- Extra off-and attack on crit/kill
- Off-hand attack on opportunity attacks
- -5 penalty to make a second off-hand attack
- Off-hand reaction on the dodge action.

Caliban · May 18, 2018

Note: Nothing in the feat says that the bonus action attack from PAM doesn't have reach as well...

jgsugden · May 18, 2018

Dex builds can't do much with Polearm Master. This is the real core of it - dual wielding is really the way to bump up a PC willing to to up both hand, but as they can also be good at archery, etc... it is fair that they're not as good at this element as the heavy weapon fighters.

Also, sometimes you're better off with two magic weapons than one - each might have their own benefits. However, in 5E, you may not ever find a single magic weapon, much less two good ones, so....

The Crimson Binome · May 18, 2018

It's less that Dual Wielder is bad, and more that Polearm Mastery is too good as-written. If you remove the +Str damage from the off-hand attack, and remove the Reach feature while double-weaponing, that would bring it much more into line.

Oofta · May 18, 2018

If you're a rogue, you wouldn't ever take PAM, but you might take DWF for the plus to ACand a slight increase in damage.

If you're a fighter, you can take a fighting style to get off-hand ability mod damage and the two become roughly comparable. Add in dual-throwing weapons as a bonus.

I also don't think higher AC is something to discount so easily.

So for fighter types, roughly equivalent IMO. Others? If they can use polearms PAM may take the lead

Dausuul · May 18, 2018

CTurbo said:
Another possible advantage to Dual Wielder is that it can be used with a Dex character whereas PAM means Str only. I've seen a Dex Ranger take DW as well as a Swashbuckler Rogue.

Hmm, that is true. I suppose it could be moderately useful for a Dex-based melee specialist, and that does let you take advantage of the benefits of high Dex (initiative, skills, and a major save).

Though even then, I have some trouble figuring out when I'd use it... as Satyrn points out, +2 Dex gives you the same damage and AC boost as Dual Wielder, and +1 initiative, and +1 to hit, and +1 to all your Dex skills, and +1 to bow damage. So until you hit the cap, there's no reason to even consider it, and when you do hit the cap, there are so many better options for a feat.

Caliban said:
Note: Nothing in the feat says that the bonus action attack from PAM doesn't have reach as well...

...Wow, you are correct. Somehow I'd got it into my head that the off-hand attack didn't have reach. Polearm Mastery is even stronger than I thought.

Updating original post.