The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

Ovinomancer said:

At 5th this build is still behind the archer. The archer has a better stat and style for 15% increased hit chances and good base damage. The archer is doing 16.1 damage a round against AC 15, you build is alternating 10.75 and 21.5 every other round (you quicken EB, next round you burn a spell to get the points back so you can quicken again -- you only have 3 sorcery points). Your 2 round average is 15.425.

And, again, this is ignoring fighter subclass, which can make a significant difference in fighter output. Or a ranger, who, depending on subclass, will get nice damage bonuses and can tie anything you do with Hex with Mark.

This combo only really gets rolling after it can spam quickened EB 3 times in a row, so sorcerer level 6+ or character level 8+. Even then, stat is +4, fighter is sitting at +5 with an extra ASI for goodness and you're still trashing your slots to power the combo.

As an aside, I've long ruled that Warlock spells don't mix with other class spells, so no burning Warlock slots for sorcery points or adding metamagic to warlock slots. I may rule that your can only use Metamagic on Sorcerer list spells, as that seems like it would reduce the cheese of dipping Warlock for EB and Agonizing blast to a dumb move.

Honestly, the problem here is the poorly done wording of Agonizing Blast and Sage Advice choosing to rule each beam as a separate instance of EB.

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Brainfart on the sorcerer HD thing.

I'm saying the Sorlock though at higher levels is very competitive in terms of damge at higher levels it wins and you still have the option of doing other stuff, in practice you are not quickening beams all of the time.


Even at lower levels though with hex 1d10+charisma+ 1d6 is not bad damage and you get an extra beam at 5th level.


Boring? perhaps but you have options and it helps to think of your character as an archer and not as a spellcaster. Eldritch blast spam doesn't seem that much more boring than say being an archer.

The Sorlock is decent from level 3 on and becomes very good at higher levels. You can still drop a fireball if needed or a hypnotic pattern. 1d10+4+1d6 twice a round is competitive with a fighters 1d8+4 twice a round with +2 to hit level 5. Its also force and magic damage as well. The fighter can action surge say 3 times a day, the sorcerer can sacrifice a level 1 and 2 slot and quicken 3/day with the option to nova and sometimes you don't get 2 short rests.

The Sorlock (3 Sorc/2warlock) is dealing more damage than the fighter and still has 3 1st level spells, a 2nd level spell and 6 1st level warlock spells to use (assuming 2/short rests) and has 5 more cantrips as well. Its another 11 sorcerer points available (lets call it 8 you probably want 3 hexes) so you can quicken EB an extra 4 times.

The Sorlock is dealing more damage, has more options. This changes with the sharpshooter feat true but base damage is in the Sorlocks favor . At level 5. And it keeps getting better, your higher level Sorlock can quicken way more than the fighter can action surge, even at level 5 you can easily do it 7 times per day the fighter needs 6 short rests to do that.

The main point is we heave a spellcaster who is dealing more damage than the fighter at will and has other options and feats are also optional, sharpshooter is required.

Ovinomancer said:

At 5th this build is still behind the archer. The archer has a better stat and style for 15% increased hit chances and good base damage. The archer is doing 16.1 damage a round against AC 15, you build is alternating 10.75 and 21.5 every other round (you quicken EB, next round you burn a spell to get the points back so you can quicken again -- you only have 3 sorcery points). Your 2 round average is 15.425.

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The sorlock is behind at 5th, but not much behind. Your math is off:

Archer:
+9 to hit (+3 prof, +4 Dex, +2 style) = 75% chance to hit AC 15
1d8+4 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.75 = 12.75

Sorlock:
+6 to hit (+3 prof, +3 Cha) = 60% chance to hit AC 15
1d10+3 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.6 = 10.2

The sorlock can then use hex for an extra d6 damage per attack in most combats, Hexblade's Curse every other fight, and burn their sorcerer spell slots on Quicken Spell. The archer, on the other hand, can Action Surge every other fight, and use battlemaster maneuvers for extra damage.

All told, the archer probably still comes out ahead, but the point is they are not wide apart. This is not a build where you suck for 14 levels and become a god at 15, it's a build where you start reasonably effective, then get better over time.

Ovinomancer said:

Honestly, the problem here is the poorly done wording of Agonizing Blast and Sage Advice choosing to rule each beam as a separate instance of EB.

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No, the problem is eldritch blast being a spell in the first place. EB working on each beam is necessary; the regular (single-classed, non-bladelock) warlock is all but unplayable otherwise. But making it a cantrip opens the door to all kinds of silly tricks. It should be a warlock class feature, or folded into Agonizing Blast. Then the extra attacks would come with warlock level, like every other class's extra attacks.

Dausuul said:

The sorlock is behind at 5th, but not much behind. Your math is off:

Archer:
+9 to hit (+3 prof, +4 Dex, +2 style) = 75% chance to hit AC 15
1d8+4 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.75 = 12.75

Sorlock:
+6 to hit (+3 prof, +3 Cha) = 60% chance to hit AC 15
1d10+3 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.6 = 10.2

The sorlock can then use hex for an extra d6 damage per attack in most combats, Hexblade's Curse every other fight, and burn their sorcerer spell slots on Quicken Spell. The archer, on the other hand, can Action Surge every other fight, and use battlemaster maneuvers for extra damage.

All told, the archer probably still comes out ahead, but the point is they are not wide apart. This is not a build where you suck for 14 levels and become a god at 15, it's a build where you start reasonably effective, then get better over time.


No, the problem is eldritch blast being a spell in the first place. EB working on each beam is necessary; the regular (single-classed, non-bladelock) warlock is all but unplayable otherwise. But making it a cantrip opens the door to all kinds of silly tricks. It should be a warlock class feature, or folded into Agonizing Blast. Then the extra attacks would come with warlock level, like every other class's extra attacks.

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The math isn't off, my spreadsheet is built to account for crits.

Ovinomancer said:

The math isn't off, my spreadsheet is built to account for crits.

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Crits are worth +0.45 DPR to the archer and +0.55 to the sorlock (one die of bonus damage on 1/20 attack rolls, times two attacks).

So, factoring in crits, your number for the sorlock is correct, but you still haven't explained where the archer is getting the other 2.9 DPR from.

Tony Vargas said:

Agreed.

*plonk*

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I've asked you repeatedly as respectfully to stop the sentence-by-sentence fisking of my posts and you've repeatedly chosen not to, so I adopted (and clearly informed you of) the policy of only responding to the first quote when you do so. Don't act like the affronted party, here.

Dausuul said:

The sorlock is behind at 5th, but not much behind. Your math is off:

Archer:
+9 to hit (+3 prof, +4 Dex, +2 style) = 75% chance to hit AC 15
1d8+4 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.75 = 12.75

Sorlock:
+6 to hit (+3 prof, +3 Cha) = 60% chance to hit AC 15
1d10+3 damage = average 8.5
Two attacks = 8.5 x 2 x 0.6 = 10.2

The sorlock can then use hex for an extra d6 damage per attack in most combats, Hexblade's Curse every other fight, and burn their sorcerer spell slots on Quicken Spell. The archer, on the other hand, can Action Surge every other fight, and use battlemaster maneuvers for extra damage.

All told, the archer probably still comes out ahead, but the point is they are not wide apart. This is not a build where you suck for 14 levels and become a god at 15, it's a build where you start reasonably effective, then get better over time.


No, the problem is eldritch blast being a spell in the first place. EB working on each beam is necessary; the regular (single-classed, non-bladelock) warlock is all but unplayable otherwise. But making it a cantrip opens the door to all kinds of silly tricks. It should be a warlock class feature, or folded into Agonizing Blast. Then the extra attacks would come with warlock level, like every other class's extra attacks.

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Your math is also off, the Sorlock can have 18 charisma at 5 just like the archer having 18 dex. The archer may also not be a fighter but at level 6 the fighter will have +3 to hit over the Sorlock.

Sharpshooter can put the archer over the top but the Sorlock still has more options (like fireball) and at higher levels can sustain 6 or 8 attacks a round. As you said the Sorlock doesn't suck and it starts at very low level (3 its a bit meh level 2,).

Generally the Sorlock is better IMHO from the mid levels even if the fighter in a white room is slightly better at DPM as the archer is stuck spamming arrows the Sorlock has other options and not much is resistant or immune to force damage vs piercing damage that may or my not be magical.

Zardnaar said:

Your math is also off, the Sorlock can have 18 charisma at 5 just like the archer having 18 dex.

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Yes, the sorlock can have 18 Cha at level 5... but the sorlock can't have 18 Cha and Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell. Pick two out of three. I chose Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell.

(Also note that if you want both 18 Cha and Agonizing Blast by level 5, you have to put 4 levels in warlock. From what I've seen, most sorlock builds don't go that deep on the warlock side.)

Dausuul said:

Yes, the sorlock can have 18 Cha at level 5... but the sorlock can't have 18 Cha and Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell. Pick two out of three. I chose Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell.

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MC are always present at their top. But in fact there is long dull phase in their progression.
A sorcerer 3 / warlock 2 won’t have fireball until two other levels.
He will also but one level late for ASI.

If you want to reduce optimizing effects you need to see the whole picture.
If you review the different optimizing guides you find 5 main tools : SS, GWM, Sorcerers twin and quicken, Warlock agonizing blast, and Paladin smite.
Just nerfing one won’t help.

Dausuul said:

Yes, the sorlock can have 18 Cha at level 5... but the sorlock can't have 18 Cha and Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell. Pick two out of three. I chose Agonizing Blast and Quicken Spell.

(Also note that if you want both 18 Cha and Agonizing Blast by level 5, you have to put 4 levels in warlock. From what I've seen, most sorlock builds don't go that deep on the warlock side.)

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Good point I had a brain fart, the sorlock will have 18 cha at level 6. I brainfarted over a single class warlock derp derp.

Umbran said:

Right. So, chess and go are boring games. Gotcha. We should let the millions of people who play them know that they're actually bored, no?

(Sorry for the snark, but the statement was a little out there.)

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You've never heard that white has an advantage in chess, I guess. Black has the advantage in Go.