Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

ardoughter said:

Exactly the fluff make no sense in the context of the mechanical expression. So I am inclined to regard the fluff as unreliable and a reflection of human beliefs about sex phenotypes. I think Elves become more interesting the more alien they are. One of the reasons I really like the Blessing of Corellan, it solves a lot of issues I have always had, but learned to ignore, about D&D elves.

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I'm with you. Elves have always been portrayed as somewhat androgynous, although not with consistency through the editions. My favorite depiction of elves is from Jackson's Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies. When watching the films, the male and female elves are often sporting pretty much the same clothing and hairstyles, and sometimes they are hard to tell apart. It gave (me) the implicit message that elves don't make a big deal about gender differences.

In D&D, elves have . . . maybe not always, but often been described as androgynous. This hasn't always been reflected in the art, but it's been there from the beginning of the game. Mordy's Tome simply takes that thread running through D&D elven lore and brings it to the forefront, and not all that strongly really. It kinda blows my mind how people are misunderstanding the Blessing of Corellon, and making such a big deal of it. According to the updated elven lore, all elves are somewhat androgynous, both physically and socially (gender differences in clothing, hairstyle, behavior, and "appropriate" work isn't much of a thing in elven culture). A small subset of these already androgynous elves have the "Blessing of Corellon" are super androgynous, making it tough for even other elves to tell which physical gender they are, not that it matter much to the elves. A small subset of the Blessed of Corellon can actually change their gender.

A lot of folks in this thread are making this into some sort of game-breaking mechanical advantage or clever ruse for elven rogues when it isn't anything of the sort. If non-elves, and even other elves, have a hard time telling whether you are a girl or a boy in the first place, being able to actually change your gender isn't changing your appearance very much at all. This blessing is useless as a disguise or con or anything other than a background. It's not gamebreaking at all. It isn't a mechanical or even a story advantage at all. It's just another way for a character's gender to be described, as truly fluid rather than fixed.

I get the feeling there is a lot of trans-phobia in this thread, which is sad. But that doesn't mean that if you don't like and/or choose not to offer the Blessing of Corellon in your campaign that you are trans-phobic. But take a long and hard look before you say "no" to this character option. Is it *really* breaking your game or your world in some meaningful way?

I'm saying "yes" to the Blessing of Corellon in my campaigns. It is a small way to offer more support for my trans friends who play (or who might want to play) D&D and it is also a nice way to set elves apart even further from the other races that is consistent with longstanding D&D lore. I'm very happy Wizards included this option and story hook into Mordy's Tome!

psychophipps said:

Yeah, I actually brought that up a ways back.
I would assume that make/female would have clothing and/or other visual social markers to denote the current sex of the person rather than the typically fairly obvious domorpisn of humans. Secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, changes in hip/femur geometry) would probably be more subtle and/or mostly happening as necessary rather than at birth.
I also see that there is an assumption of "can and regularly does" when it comes to the available change(s). Since elves are "adults" at around 100 you can figure that they've given both sexes a go for at least a bit to find their place in their society. In fact, I think it would be safe to assume they find human sexism to be confusing and/or even incredibly offensive because they have probably literally in the the shoes of that serving wench the human barbarian is making rapey-eyes at.

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I tend to view that the 100 years to adulthood to be a cultural thing as it takes that long to truly master the etiquette and other stuff that elves consider to be a basic education. So yeah, humans are ignorant and boorish with some really odd views about what people can and cannot do.

Dire Bare said:

…..
In D&D, elves have . . . maybe not always, but often been described as androgynous. This hasn't always been reflected in the art, but it's been there from the beginning of the game. Mordy's Tome simply takes that thread running through D&D elven lore and brings it to the forefront, and not all that strongly really. It kinda blows my mind how people are misunderstanding the Blessing of Corellon, and making such a big deal of it. According to the updated elven lore, all elves are somewhat androgynous, both physically and socially (gender differences in clothing, hairstyle, behavior, and "appropriate" work isn't much of a thing in elven culture). A small subset of these already androgynous elves have the "Blessing of Corellon" are super androgynous, making it tough for even other elves to tell which physical gender they are, not that it matter much to the elves. A small subset of the Blessed of Corellon can actually change their gender.
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This would be my take also. So for practical purposes the gender switch does not act as a disguise, certainly not to other elves.

Sunseeker said:

Sure, it lets them switch sex, but much of gender is based on physical appearance and capability.

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I said it before and I will say it again. Gender is between your ears and sex is between your legs. If you hear your entire life that "Boys/Girls can't/don't do those things" and you follow that social pressure then you are being molded by social constructs, not ability. If you choose the way you look or carry yourself to be "normal" then you are matching a societal construct entirely separated from ability. Yes, most folks choose to follow the herd, and that fine for them, but to say gender is based upon physical appearance and ability?

I think your assumptions are pretty misguided. As an example, I'm 6'2" and 250lbs. There are several ladies in my CrossFit box that can smoke me any day of the week in terms of reps, but I can out lift them in raw weight just because I'm a physical monster. Their thrust to weight ratio blows me out of the water and they run past my rhino trundling like gazelles when we have runs in our workouts. In fact, in *every single* measurable workout metric they outperform me except in raw maximum liftable weight.
That said, as long as your social system or culture isn't based on raw brute violence (read: ability to kill others, or make other do that killing for us, to get what we want) like the skeleton that current human societies have been built upon then the assumption that these are "man things" and those are "woman things" get tossed pretty quickly. Removing obvious dimorphic differences and other "Low Magic" human assumptions from the mix and you can quite easily see the human mainstream gender distinctions as based far more on societal pressures than assumed physical attributes.

ardoughter said:

I tend to view that the 100 years to adulthood to be a cultural thing as it takes that long to truly master the etiquette and other stuff that elves consider to be a basic education. So yeah, humans are ignorant and boorish with some really odd views about what people can and cannot do.

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I dunno, the idea that elves are "enlightened" because they take longer to "grow up" doesn't necessarily follow. Elves live hundreds and hundreds of years. That gives them the ability to have "old school" traditionalists rule over them for thousands of years.

I think we're setting ourselves up for some poor examples by suggesting that the elves are more "enlightened" thanks to the Blessing.

What sort of expectations does a society wherein the Blessing exists place on people with it?

What of people who have it, but don't want it? (assuming you can get it randomly and not like, have to request it in-character).

Perhaps given their ability to shift, the elves hold higher expectations of the Blessed, to be exemplars of the flexibility of elven society. Perhaps it is considered bad form for a Blessed to even choose their preferred form, perhaps they are culturally pressured to shift regularly, or shift when society has need of another sex. Sort of a "great power great responsibility" situation.

Perhaps as above, in a traditionalist society, elves who can shift are expected to know both (or more) sexes social etiquette, to be both chivalrous and delicate, to be both forward and reserved. Flexibility does not necessarily mean freedom.

psychophipps said:

I think your assumptions are pretty misguided. As an example, I'm 6'2" and 250lbs. There are several ladies in my CrossFit box that can smoke me any day of the week in terms of reps, but I can out lift them in raw weight just because I'm a physical monster. Their thrust to weight ratio blows me out of the water and they run past my rhino trundling like gazelles when we have runs in our workouts. In fact, in *every single* measurable workout metric they outperform me except in raw maximum liftable weight.
That said, as long as your social system or culture isn't based on raw brute strength like the skeleton that human societies have been built upon then the assumption that these are "man things" and those are "woman things" get tossed pretty quickly. Removing obvious dimorphic differences, magic prowess as a measure of societal status, and other "Low Magic" human assumptions from the mix and you can quite easily see the human mainstream gender distinctions as based far more on societal pressures than assumed physical attributes.

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I think you're reading something I didn't write. 'cause what you're saying here doesn't really track with what I was writing.

Sunseeker said:

I dunno, the idea that elves are "enlightened" because they take longer to "grow up" doesn't necessarily follow. Elves live hundreds and hundreds of years. That gives them the ability to have "old school" traditionalists rule over them for thousands of years.

I think we're setting ourselves up for some poor examples by suggesting that the elves are more "enlightened" thanks to the Blessing.

What sort of expectations does a society wherein the Blessing exists place on people with it?

What of people who have it, but don't want it? (assuming you can get it randomly and not like, have to request it in-character).

Perhaps given their ability to shift, the elves hold higher expectations of the Blessed, to be exemplars of the flexibility of elven society. Perhaps it is considered bad form for a Blessed to even choose their preferred form, perhaps they are culturally pressured to shift regularly, or shift when society has need of another sex. Sort of a "great power great responsibility" situation.

Perhaps as above, in a traditionalist society, elves who can shift are expected to know both (or more) sexes social etiquette, to be both chivalrous and delicate, to be both forward and reserved. Flexibility does not necessarily mean freedom.

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Ok, I did not express myself well there, I did not mean that Elves are more enlightened but that there is a lot that an adult elf is expected to master to be considered an adult. Enough that it is considered normal that it takes a century or so to learn it. By that standard humans and any other short lived species are boorish and ignorant but they can't help it so allowances are made for them from the elvish point of view.

Not that elves are enlightened in some absolute sense.

In my view there is a considerable pressure on the Blessed of Correllan (you don't get called Blessed in a society without some hefty social expectations landed on your. No good deed goes unpunished) and they are expected to shift if the society has need of one or other sex.
There is probably a religious ritual that can make more of the Blessed is the need is great enough.

ardoughter said:

Ok, I did not express myself well there, I did not mean that Elves are more enlightened but that there is a lot that an adult elf is expected to master to be considered an adult. Enough that it is considered normal that it takes a century or so to learn it. By that standard humans and any other short lived species are boorish and ignorant but they can't help it so allowances are made for them from the elvish point of view.

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The Tome of Foes explains the elvish maturation process in rather different terms. It's not that they spend a century learning, it's that they don't even really start learning until they stop experiencing memories of their past lives and thus are considered a distinct individual, which takes a while.

TheCosmicKid said:

The Tome of Foes explains the elvish maturation process in rather different terms. It's not that they spend a century learning, it's that they don't even really start learning until they stop experiencing memories of their past lives and thus are considered a distinct individual, which takes a while.

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Edit: Slight brain fart there, I have not yet received my copy of that book. I am going by hearsay as to the contents and some of my own noodling over the years.
Part of that is that I have real issues with the generally received view of elven lifespan and maturation.

Edit more: How long does this memories of plast lives thing go on for? and does it say anything about the physical growth of the elf?

As should be pretty obvious from the tone of my posts, I prefer the more alien approach to Elves that this change creates. In fact, I will simply assume that all non-Drow Elves have this blessing and it's up to the individual players to decide if they want to do something with it in terms of character development or if their character is quite happy with how things turned out when they reached "adulthood", thanks. The days of Elves simply being the pointy-eared beef/cheesecakes with cool racial abilities/bonuses, but are really just like humans, are gone forever in my games. Male and female elves will default roll on the male height and weight chart unless they indicate they want to use the old chart for some reason.

I will have this in my next game starting later this week and will keep you posted if this thread continues to show interest.