Skill Feats In Pathfinder 2

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

Monday's Pathfinder 2 preview over at the Paizo blog talked about skills, so it only makes sense that the Friday preview would take a look at skill feats in the upcoming game.

Pathfinder2BetaLogo.png

"One that will stand out to risk-averse players is Assurance, which allows you to achieve a result of 10, 15, 20, or even 30, depending on your proficiency rank, without rolling. Are you taking a huge penalty or being forced to roll multiple times and use the lowest result? Doesn't matter—with Assurance, you always get the listed result. It's perfect for when you want to be able to automatically succeed at certain tasks, and the kinds of things you can achieve with an automatic 30 are pretty significant, worthy of legendary proficiency." This puts a new spin on critical results, as the Assurance feat lets you get the result that you might need for your character, even if it is a low roll.

Characters get a feat on every even-numbered level, so this is going to mean (at least) 10 feats for a character over the course of playing across 20 levels. "At their most basic level, skill feats allow you to customize how you use skills in the game, from combat tricks to social exploits, from risk-averse failure prevention to high-risk heroism. If you'd ever rather just have more trained skills than special techniques with the skills you already have, you can always take the Skill Training skill feat to do just that. Otherwise, you're in for a ride full of options, depending on your proficiency rank." We saw in the update about skills how the number of skills, and how your character advances in them. Skill feats are the road to further customization of your character's skills, and may be a missing piece of the advancement pie.

We know that skill mastery is going to be in "tiers" of expert, master and legendary, and the skill feats will give extra abilities with skills. For example, the cat fall feat: "Your catlike aerial acrobatics allow you to cushion your fall. Treat all falls as if you fell 10 fewer feet. If you're an expert in Acrobatics, treat falls as 25 feet shorter. If you're a master in Acrobatics, treat them as 50 feet shorter. If you're legendary in Acrobatics, you always land on your feet and don't take damage, regardless of the distance of the fall." At the cost of one feat, you receive a lot of new capabilities for your character's acrobatics skill. I suspect that more than a few Pathfinder 2 games are going to see a lot of high level rogues falling from very tall things.

Legendary characters, on either side of the screen, are going to be tough to beat in Pathfinder 2 games. "Legendary characters can do all sorts of impressive things with their skills, not just using scaling skill feats but also using inherently legendary skill feats. If you're legendary, you can swim like a fish, survive indefinitely in the void of space, steal a suit of full plate off a guard (see Legendary Thief below), constantly sneak everywhere at full speed while performing other tasks (Legendary Sneak, from Monday's blog), give a speech that stops a war in the middle of the battlefield, remove an affliction or permanent condition with a medical miracle (Legendary Medic, also from Monday's blog), speak to any creature with a language instantly through an instinctual pidgin language, completely change your appearance and costume in seconds, squeeze through a hole the size of your head at your full walking speed, decipher codes with only a skim, and more!" This is going to mean that there are going to be some pretty impressive high level characters in Pathfinder 2 games.

What do you think? Is the added flexibility that skill feats will give to character counter the changes to the skill system, or make them better?
 

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pemerton

Legend
So, he's, like, extending his Chi into the wall, and creating Chi-Friction to slow his fall, but it's not physical.

Y'know, he could also just do the skydiver thing to move close enough to the wall to touch it, soon enough to slow himself down before reaching the bottom?
One of those seems more interesting, and more fitting with the image of a fantasy monk, than the other.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
For that matter, one works for the mystic vision of monk, the other for the martial artist.

Like so many things in D&D, how things work is not explained and left up to the interpretation and preferences of the DM.

Quite often, this has resulted in critics of D&D saying that something is stupid because it couldn't work that way or doesn't work that way or doesn't have an explanation. Sometimes, like some of the critics of early common core math text books, they are right. And sometimes, just like some of the critics of early common core math text books only proved that they were innumerate, it just proves the critic lacks an imagination.

For the life of me, I can't figure out which of your explanations was supposed to be more fitting for the image of a fantasy monk, and which one wasn't fitting.
 

mellored

Legend
And while spellcasters do get to cheat a lot, I don't think there were ever any spells that could actually pull this off.
Suggestion: "Take your armor off and throw it in the garbage, then go ask your boss for something more suited to a wonderful knight like yourself."

Alternatively, disguise self + glibness: "I've come from the future, you are going to face rust monsters tomorrow. When you defeat them, you will find a wand of time travel. If you give me your armor now, you will save it from a horrible fate".



But really. "Legendary" is not "Mundane". It's a magic of some sort. The same kind that lets dragons fly and breath fire, Medusa turn people into stone, ghouls paralyze with a touch, troglodytes infinite stench, or any of the hundred other innate fantastic abilities creatures in D&D have. Unless someone wants to physically explain rust monsters, or how trolls regenerate like an x-man... a rogue stealing someone's pants off them is tame.


Hmm... new monster idea. A troll with retractable mithral claws...
 

Suggestion: "Take your armor off and throw it in the garbage, then go ask your boss for something more suited to a wonderful knight like yourself."

Alternatively, disguise self + glibness: "I've come from the future, you are going to face rust monsters tomorrow. When you defeat them, you will find a wand of time travel. If you give me your armor now, you will save it from a horrible fate".
[/QUOTE]
In both cases, he would still be well aware that he is losing his armor, he just thinks there is a good reason for it in the moment.

But really. "Legendary" is not "Mundane". It's a magic of some sort. The same kind that lets dragons fly and breath fire, Medusa turn people into stone, ghouls paralyze with a touch, troglodytes infinite stench, or any of the hundred other innate fantastic abilities creatures in D&D have. Unless someone wants to physically explain rust monsters, or how trolls regenerate like an x-man... a rogue stealing someone's pants off them is tame.


Hmm... new monster idea. A troll with retractable mithral claws...
I guess the problem is that it's very insane and outlandish but very close to something "real".

There are no dragons. Whether they can fly or breath fire is just stuff you accept if you play a fantasy game. But There are thieves in the real world, and they can't possibly steal someone out of a full plate while's alive and awake. Heck, it would be hard to get him out at all if he isn't actively cooperating.
There isn't just a way you can gradually see some thief getting slightly better and better with training until he just removes armor from a guard.

There have actually been people that survived falls from great height (like a parachute not opening or just falling out of a window or balcony). But have there been thieves that almost disrobed an armored guard?
Falling without taking damage seems trivial by comparison. I'd expect Athletics to let my fly or Acrobatics to let me walk on air (as I carefully balance on dust in the air or whatever), a Swim skill could let me swim through earth... And sure, maybe epic skills could be that. But again the problem is that it's hard to see the gradual increase to get there. It is really flipping a switch from "good at his job" to "magic".

Maybe the end result in rules will be better than it sounded here to me. Maybe there will be a gradual increase to reach that epicness. The magic parts probably need to happen a bit earlier than just suddenly at Epic.
 

mewzard

Explorer
There are no dragons. Whether they can fly or breath fire is just stuff you accept if you play a fantasy game. But There are thieves in the real world, and they can't possibly steal someone out of a full plate while's alive and awake. Heck, it would be hard to get him out at all if he isn't actively cooperating.
There isn't just a way you can gradually see some thief getting slightly better and better with training until he just removes armor from a guard.

There have actually been people that survived falls from great height (like a parachute not opening or just falling out of a window or balcony). But have there been thieves that almost disrobed an armored guard?
Falling without taking damage seems trivial by comparison. I'd expect Athletics to let my fly or Acrobatics to let me walk on air (as I carefully balance on dust in the air or whatever), a Swim skill could let me swim through earth... And sure, maybe epic skills could be that. But again the problem is that it's hard to see the gradual increase to get there. It is really flipping a switch from "good at his job" to "magic".

Maybe the end result in rules will be better than it sounded here to me. Maybe there will be a gradual increase to reach that epicness. The magic parts probably need to happen a bit earlier than just suddenly at Epic.

Martial arts practicing Monks exist in the real world, but I'm pretty sure they can't punch through a steel door like it's butter, no matter how well they train.

There's going to be plenty examples of Legendary Skill abilities matching what, say, Beowulf did, or Heracles (I seem to recall swimming for days in full plate being mentioned, but I might be misremembering).

Expert's going to be more your peak Olympic Athlete stuff, and Master will probably be that bridge (Like, Jumping 20 feet in the air to smack a foe down).
 

mellored

Legend
I guess the problem is that it's very insane and outlandish but very close to something "real".
Rusting armor with a touch is nowhere near real.
Paralyzing someone with a touch is nowhere near real.
Looking at someone and and having them turn to stone is not real.
Wiggling your fingers and chanting to launch a lighting bolt is not real.


There are no dragons. Whether they can fly or breath fire is just stuff you accept if you play a fantasy game. But There are thieves in the real world, and they can't possibly steal someone out of a full plate while's alive and awake.
So you accept a flying, fire-breathing dragon as part of fantasy...

But suddenly draw the line that a thief living in the same universe cannot have supernatural abilities?
 

mellored

Legend
Here.

Legendary shadow thief.
You can spend 1 minute stealthily enchanting an object with thief magic. After 1 minute, and along with some careful distractions and timing, the object momentarily turns into a shadow, allowing you to pull it away from the target, even if they where wearing it. The person will notice it in a few rounds.


"Because magic".
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
From the AD&D PHB, p 31:
Although the chance of falling while climbing walls is the same as that of a thief of equal level, monks can escape taking damage as follows:

- At 4th level (Disciple), a monk can fall up to 20' if he or she is within 1' of a wall.

- At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.

- At 13th level (Master of Winter), a monk can fall any distance if he or she is within 8' of a wall.​

What is a monk who is 8' from a wall doing (physically) that will generate friction to slow his/her fall?

Are you really going to use such an argument?

OK - fine.

I suspect you have missed the obvious - so let me point it out for you.

What is the relevance of the wall at all? It is relevant, or it wouldn't be mentioned now would it... perhaps you really think that the monk can peacefully look at it as he/she falls and take in the interesting details... or does it in fact have something to do with the fact their mastery of mid air acrobatics can get move them close enough to it to grab hold of it to slow their fall?

Clue - there is only one logical answer.
 


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