Homebrew My Experiment with 5e - No Classes with Cantrips - Page 6
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouseferatu View Post
    Honestly, I tend to feel like rituals belong in an S&S game more than most other forms of D&D magic. The long, complex ceremony being the primary (or even only) form of functional magic is quite common in S&S tales.
    I completely agree. A low magic game feels even more low magic if the only magic available is ritual magic. It gives magic more gravitas. You have to plan how and when and where to make the best use of a ritual. You can't just fly by the seat of your pants and cast whatever spell you need to save your ass. I have never really cared for the high magic aspect of D&D, especially once you get past low levels. I guess that is why I prefer E6 or E8 games when I play D&D.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by jgsugden View Post
    D&D used magic to 'escalate' the types of challenges PCs face. As PCs obtain more tools and gain the ability to bypass certain types of challenges, the game introduces newer challenges that take more advanced capabilities to confront. This is a problem for PC types that do not have evolving capabilities that handle these challenges, but it does provide benefits: Things do not get old and players feel like their characters are evolving. If you're still wrestling with how to get the amulet that sits on a floating pedestal that hovers above a 100' wide canyon when you're 15th level, the PCs don't feel that different than a 3rd level party. If, however, that amulet is in an extradimensional pocket protected by animated energy motes ... the PCs don't feel like they're in Kansas anymore. They've graduated... although the S&S tpe PCs don't feel like they have as much to offer in these challenges.
    I think a skill system can handle this pretty well. The key feature of skill resolution rather than spell resolution that @Hussar is pointing to is (i) the need to engage the fiction in action declaration and resolution, and (ii) the lack of auto-success.

    You can get those features while allowing high level PCs to do things with their skills that are superhuman in capability.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    And that's fair enough. Totally get that. I wanted a much stronger sword and sorcery feel, which means that having two, three, or four spells being cast every single round and every single challenge being met with a shopping list of spells really doesn't get achieve that feel. It's great D&D, sure, but, it's not terribly great S&S.
    Are you familiar with Mike Mearls's Iron Heroes book that he did as part of Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press? It was just a heavy Sword and Sorcery game with a lot of mundane classes and only one spellcaster*: the Arcanist.

    * At least until a Companion released the Spiritualist.

    I'm fairly certain that this was the book that got Mearls the job at WotC too.

  4. #54
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    In my campaign (which isn't S&S) there is an individual known as the Archmage of Ras-Bolon.

    He's a fighter/champion subclass with all his feats devoted to magic, including ritual casting. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...ame&highlight=
    Fear not the slugman

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouseferatu View Post
    Honestly, I tend to feel like rituals belong in an S&S game more than most other forms of D&D magic. The long, complex ceremony being the primary (or even only) form of functional magic is quite common in S&S tales.
    Yeah, I could get behind that. And, really, the barbarian didn't faze me too much, despite getting some built in rituals. Makes the whole "nature priest" thing work pretty well.

    Honestly, it just never came up.

    And, note, while PC's couldn't be full casters, NPC's certainly could. So, you could go find a wizard to do something for you (hopefully) and the setting does have clerics.

  6. #56
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    Did you adjust your monsters as well? Did you not use monsters with at will spells, or did you just cut the at will part and keep the rest of the monster?

    I apologize if this has already been discussed.

    Thanks.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    I think a skill system can handle this pretty well.
    How? Inherently your options are static. You might be able to jump slighylyvfarther or break down a slightly thicker door, but your problem solutions remain substantially the same.[quote]The key feature of skill resolution rather than spell resolution that @Hussar is pointing to is (i) the need to engage the fiction in action declaration and resolution, and (ii) the lack of auto-success.[quote]I understand this is what he is seeking, but that is apples and oranges with my point. He wants a certain low magic feel, but my point is that one style being used throughout an entire campaign doesn' eveolve as much as a system that starts there, then adds layers of magic over and over and over to evolve constantly.

    Also, as to (i) - Spells do not mean you don't engage the fiction. If magic feels like you're shutting down the engagement with the fiction, you're forgetting how wonderful and exotic magic should be. Listen a bit to Critical Role podcasts/videos for some good evocative use of magic that might feel better to folks that get bored by magical solutions.

    As to (ii) - I see three tiers when it comes to approaching problems with magic: 1.) You have no magic that assists, 2.) Magic helps but does not solve the problem, 3.) Magic bypasses the problem. For most challenge types, you progress through these tiers. A 25' wide crevice can by bypassed by a jump spell or fly spell, or shapechanging magic. Even though jump *could* be there at leve 1, it isn't a common spell choice. So there is no great magic to help one PC get past it for a few levels. Once they have it, the rest of the party still has to get past the crevice. It isn't until higher levels that the PCs can all teleport/fly across the crevice. You get three different experiences as you advance in level... and by the time you can just dismiss the challenge, you've had a good amount of time working through them and are likely to be a bit tired of them.
    You can get those features while allowing high level PCs to do things with their skills that are superhuman in capability.
    Again, what are you thinking of here. Let's say you have a 20 Strength human fighter rogue with Athletics Expertise at 13th level. His Athletics is a mighty +15. Compare that to a 16 Strength Fighter of level 1 with Athletics Proficiency (+5). What can the 13th level Master of Athletics do that the first level fighter can't? Jump a bit farther? Climb a slicker wall? Lift something that is a bit heavier? Is there a new solution that they can attempt that was not something they could have tried on a weaker version of the problem earlier?

    The evolution in problem solving offers something to the game. All I'm really saying is that this S&S, no cantrip class, approach has a cost... and that cost may be felt more heavily as time goes by.

    It kind of reminds me of a lot of Dark Sun games. The unique environment of Dark Sun brings a certain feel, but those elements, if emphasized in every session, get a bit tiring. When the DM comes to you and asks how you're going to make sure you have enough water and silt filters for a two week voyage on the Silt Sea... when you're 13th level and have had that conversation 20 times already... It can be less evocative than you might think.

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