D&D 5E 5e Fighter/Barb optimization - Battlemaster + shield master + rage

Sandro Giovanelli · Jun 16, 2018

I looked for, but haven´t found this build yet. So I´d like to see your opinion.
I think it´s the most versatile build for a fighter.
It´s a human fighter, wearing medium armour and a rapier (finesse weapon).

level 1 Fighter
- Dueling style (+2dmg)
- Shield master (bonus action, you shove with strength check and receive advantage on the next attacks)
level 2 - Barbarian - rage (+2dmg/advantage on strenght checks/dmg resistance)
level 3 - fighter
level 4 - fighter battlemaster- disarm maneuver (strength check)
level 5 - fighter - defensive duelist feat (reaction you add proficiency bonus to AC +3)

next levels, continue battlemaster.

Blue · Jun 17, 2018

Welcome to ENWorld, have some XP!

Sandro Giovanelli said:
I looked for, but haven´t found this build yet. So I´d like to see your opinion.
I think it´s the most versatile build for a fighter.
It´s a human fighter, wearing medium armour and a rapier (finesse weapon).

level 1 Fighter
- Dueling style (+2dmg)
- Shield master (bonus action, you shove with strength check and receive advantage on the next attacks)
level 2 - Barbarian - rage (+2dmg/advantage on strenght checks/dmg resistance)
level 3 - fighter
level 4 - fighter battlemaster- disarm maneuver (strength check)
level 5 - fighter - defensive duelist feat (reaction you add proficiency bonus to AC +3)

next levels, continue battlemaster.

There was a recent change in the order for triggered bonus actions, that they have to happen after the triggering action. So you won't get your Shield Master shove (to prone) until after your Attack action has completed. Makes it less useful.

2 rages a day is about 1/3 of your expected combats per day. Is it really worth delaying Extra Attack for? Help me understand why this isn't better taken at a later level, after the level 5 power bump. Is it for Shield Master and Disarm?

It seems like you are loading yousefl up on STR checks and then hoping that your few rages can cover when you want to use them because you aren't loading up on STR. I'm hard pressed to say that Shield Master prone and Disarm aren't better on a pure STR build. This trades a lot of efficiency for versatility and I'd like to see some numbers before judging if it's worth it. I started to put together a sample character but I don't think I understand your vision.

Sandro Giovanelli · Jun 17, 2018

Don't forget you still get half the damage that a pure fighter would suffer, and a +2 dmg.
You delay one level to get an extra atack to become almost invencible on str checks that you'd already have to do anyways, plus all this bonuses I Said before.
Seems pretty awesome to me.
But i have to stay that i didn'd know about the change on the bonus action order.
Besides, i'm playing in a campaign starting lvl 1. We don't event imagine to reach lvl 17+.

Thanks for the answer!

bid · Jun 17, 2018

Sandro Giovanelli said:
Don't forget you still get half the damage that a pure fighter would suffer, and a +2 dmg.

Once in a while, not every battle.

Usually, build will stop at barbarian 2 to reckless attack with GWM. And the barbarian 1 wrestler build uses a versatile weapon.

And reaction is used to stop skimishers, sentinel is more useful with sword and board tanks.

Blue · Jun 17, 2018

Sandro Giovanelli said:
Don't forget you still get half the damage that a pure fighter would suffer, and a +2 dmg.

That's only two encounters per day, about 1/3 of what you can expect. Let's talk about the majority of the time, when rage isn't active. Or let's invest more in barbarian to get more rages.

Sandro Giovanelli said:
You delay one level to get an extra atack to become almost invencible on str checks that you'd already have to do anyways, plus all this bonuses I Said before.
Seems pretty awesome to me.
But i have to stay that i didn'd know about the change on the bonus action order.
Besides, i'm playing in a campaign starting lvl 1. We don't event imagine to reach lvl 17+.

Thanks for the answer!

That's why I was asking for numbers - I don't see being very good at the STR checks. I see having a medium STR that struggles to succeed half the time, and two combats a day having advantage which brings it up to pretty nice. But that's the minority of the time.

Chryssis · Jun 17, 2018

Another point is that the +2dmg from barbarian doesn't apply to a finesse weapon, only to weapons that use strength so you will be taking a dip basically for resistance 2 minutes a day also given that you need str or dex for figher and Str for barb you are probably better served just doing a strength build. especially at lower levels it is unlikely that your dex+con will outpace a medium armor unless you rolled stats and got some really nice rolls for your dex/con.

the shield master is still nice for a barb if you have other melee in your group since you can reckless attack make your attacks with advantage, use your bonus to shove so that your allies get advantage, rinse repeat.

cheers,

Sandro Giovanelli · Jun 17, 2018

Actually, It does work. Look:

Defensive duelist:

W hen you are wielding a finesse weapon with which you are proficient and another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.

Finesse:

When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice o f your Strength OR Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the sam e m odifier for both rolls.

Rage:
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage colum n of the Barbarian table.

Chryssis · Jun 17, 2018

ya Strength OR dex, not Strength and Dex, therefore if you are going to attack with your finesse weapon and want to gain the rage benefit you need to use your strength. so example character using standard array . 13st+1 15dex+1 14con 8int 12wis 10cha. means you have +3+3 using dex, or +2+4 using strength and can either be unarmoured or wear studded leather or medium armor without any effect 12 +3 or 13-15 +2 so there is very little benefit to going dex. you'd be better off doing 16st 14dex 14con you'll end up with the same AC and your attacks will do +3+5 damage while raging better grapples/shoves raging or not all you lose is 1 to dex saving throw

if you are implying that you intend to use a finesse weapon using your strength then yes although you limit your damage die for the benefit of +3 to AC for 1 attack per round near the end of your playing career. you would be better served just taking an ASI and getting a permanent +1 to dex (or con if you are doing the naked barbarian thing). Only the Rapier would give you the d8 which is a little munchkiny for this style of build, and rapiers aren't necessarily readily available (or cheap at early levels) so you will likely end up using a shortsword or scimitar for a d6 for the first few levels anyways, unless you go battleaxe etc until lvl 5 and then your character magically decides he doesn't like smashing skulls anymore and wants to poke people in fleshy bits...might be a hard RP

Salthorae · Jun 18, 2018

Sandro Giovanelli said:
Actually, It does work. Look:

Defensive duelist:

W hen you are wielding a finesse weapon with which you are proficient and another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.

Finesse:

When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice o f your Strength OR Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the sam e m odifier for both rolls.

Rage:
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage colum n of the Barbarian table.

It totally works and it’s a cool concept I think. The poised warrior/fencing master who every now and then can reach that extra gear when fighting and he seems immune to the damage when he does get hit, flummoxing his opponents with both skill and that next level toughness.

I think some of the confusion revolves around stats, because you won’t be able to focus on just str/con or dex/con.

Personally i think that’s fine if you have a variant human, you can start at 1st level with Fighter/Dueling and defensive duelist and using standard array have 16/14/14/12/10/8. That seems like an awesome start to a build.

I’d probably push Shield Master to the 4th level ASI, but YMMV.

Looks like you’re wanting to build something that is versatile in offense and defense not just all offense and this looks like a good way to do that.

EDIT: after you pick up that 5th Fighter level for Extra attack you could have more fun (flavor wise) going into Rogue for 3 levels to pick up Swashbuckler. Gets you free Disengage after attacking someone, +2d6 damage on pretty much all attacks from a new way to use your sneak attack (as normal: when you have advantage, when an ally is w/n 5'; plus new: when you are the only one on an opponent). So then you're 1d8+7+2d6 per attack while raging... anyway, that is what I would consider next after Battlemaster 5!

bid · Jun 18, 2018

Chryssis said:
13st+1 15dex+1 14con 8int 12wis 10cha.

Why would you ever Dex16 on a Str build?
I'm not seeing anything that makes me believe the OP wants Dex16.

You start Str16 / Dex14, enough for medium armor and defensive duelist. Your rapier has +3 hit and +5 damage when you rage.