Everybody Cheats? - Page 21
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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
    Yet fudging can also entail "entire table suffers." Fudging is not always positive for the players. And players are not always fudging their rolls for the sake of the player character. This even gets discussed in the quotes from the OP's book.

    Also as an aside, I don't buy into this whole "good DM" vs. "bad DM" meta-narrative that seeks to excrete a set of XYZ behaviors, trends, and methods onto a fictional and nebulous class of DM for the sake of uplifting the class of DMs dubbed "good" who coincidentally happen to align with the practices of the speaker.
    That's all well and good, just know that I only indulged myself within the cheating and fudging discussion for the sake of putting down my opinion on the matter if I were to have one.

    I'm already on record as stating that DM's can't cheat due to Rule 0 and any cheating or fudging that DM's allow the players is under the same mandate. By the extension of logic that means that any fudging done by players that the DM doesn't know about, or doesn't allow is "cheating".

    Personally, I just have a good social contract with my players before a game starts that if I were to paraphrase the page of text would boil down to "don't be a dink." Seems to work out just fine when everyone enjoys themselves and comes back next week.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibili View Post
    Interesting question. I suspect that they are points along a continuum, based on frequency, severity and intent to gain advantage over another player(s) or the DM. There is therefore always going to be a grey area between, but where the extremes are quite clear.

    For me, if doing it makes the game more fun and enjoyable, without fundementally changing the way it is being played, then it is fudging. That's why DMs cannot cheat, unless there is clear intent on the DM's part to make the player's lives unpleasent, and not in a fun way.

    Cheating on the other hand is an attempt to gain advantage over another player or players, or to change the way the game plays i.e. in a game where succuss is based on skill + random element, cheating is an attempt to remove that random element.
    Whereas I think thatís just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

    Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    The rule is what it is. How you interpret it has a lot to do with whether you're a half full or half empty kind of person.

    If you're half-empty then it's an ego salve
    If you're half-full it's the enabler of all the kit bashing done on the forums and in the hobby.

    Which one any particular person is seems to have a lot to do with whether or not a pet peeve has been enabled. Either way, DMs can't cheat. They either have fun with their group or they drive them away. That's the flexibility of the rules set.

    Be well
    KB
    Itís not cheating if itís fun? Fun for who? And how do we measure that? Since fudging is generally secret, the players canít judge.

    Note, kit bashing is another kettle of fish. Thatís above board and tacitly agreed upon by all participants.

    If fudging isnít cheating then why do dms keep it secret?
    XP Aldarc gave XP for this post

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    But, as I recall in this thread, you talk about booting players for cheating. So, you must have encountered it at least once in your gaming experience.

    And, let's not forget, there is a very fine line between "fudging" and "cheating". It's a pretty rare DM who has never, ever, fudged anything in any game at any time.
    They have encountered cheating, they just never made their perception check when it happened...
    Laugh Imaculata laughed with this post

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    Whereas I think thatís just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

    Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.
    Well, if it's a co-operative dice game, chances are, the other players will be okay with it...
    Also, some dice games like Roll-Player are all about changing die rolls. Naturally, there are rules that dictate exactly how and when you may change die rolls, but still.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    Itís not cheating if itís fun? Fun for who? And how do we measure that? Since fudging is generally secret, the players canít judge.

    Note, kit bashing is another kettle of fish. Thatís above board and tacitly agreed upon by all participants.

    If fudging isnít cheating then why do dms keep it secret?
    Simple - the DMs I play with do NOT keep it secret. If you donít want it at your games, thatís fine. But if a group agrees amongst ourselves that it is acceptable weíre not suddenly having badwrongfun. Play the game how you like and let other groups play how they like.

    Edit to add: In my games, DM fudging is also tacitly agreed upon by all participants. So why is it a different kettle of fish?
    Last edited by kenmarable; Wednesday, 27th June, 2018 at 02:44 PM.
    Check out my introduction to Planescape blog at Rule of 3. Thanks!

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
    Yet fudging can also entail "entire table suffers." Fudging is not always positive for the players. And players are not always fudging their rolls for the sake of the player character. This even gets discussed in the quotes from the OP's book.
    Fudging is always positive for the players, or at least intended to be so. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fudging. It would be DM abuse of power. Players cannot fudge by the way. They have no authority to do so unless the DM gives it to them. They are cheating if they alter a die roll outside of some PC ability/feat/spell to do so.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    Whereas I think thatís just sophistry and silly buggers semantics.

    Try this. Change a die roll in any dice game other than an rpg and see what happens.
    Really? That's your counter? You do realize that it amounts to this.

    Man 1: Killing in self-defense is allowed if your life is being threatened.

    You: Sophistry and semantics! Try just walking up to a random stranger and shooting them in the head and see what happens.

    Yes Hussar, if you play a game where you are not allowed to change die rolls and you change a die roll, it's cheating. That has no bearing on D&D, though.
    XP Gibili gave XP for this post

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
    Fudging is always positive for the players, or at least intended to be so. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be fudging. It would be DM abuse of power.
    But surely the DM can also fudge in a way that is negative to the players? What if I want a boss to be extra tough, so I tell a player they missed, when in fact they hit?

    And how do you determine whether this type of fudging is positive or negative to the players?

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenmarable View Post
    Play the game how you like and let other groups play how they like.
    This is not what the discussion is about.

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