Tony Vargas
Legend
Problem is that brand of suspense lasts until the die stops.
Suspense in RPGs
Bedrockgames
Legend
All suspense eventually gets closure. If the players are at a casino, you'll have building suspense as they win, until they place that final bet. If it is a single hand or something, well, sure, but the suspense also ends in a James Bond movie when the cards are laid on the table. There is plenty of room in an RPG for the suspense to build prior to that (particularly if players and/or NPCs are using dodgy means or trying to psyche each other out). If the situation is role-played, it won't just be a quick moment of the die roll.
How long the suspense lasts is entirely dependent on what is going on. The suspense can last a long time if the player is moving down a mile long corridor filled with traps; it can also last a long time if the player gets news that someone he loves is about to be shot on the other side of town, and he needs to race their as quickly as possible before the tragedy unfolds.
Tony Vargas
Legend
But if your source of suspense is just the uncertainty of the die roll, 'eventually' comes pretty quick...
In the James Bond movie stuff happens as they play the hand. You can 'RP' that stuff to stretch out the moment, but you're just stalling, nothing is going to make a difference, the die will fall where it will.
Now, if the game is more than a die roll, if there's a series of decisions or complications or whatever, then the delay feels purposeful.
Bedrockgames
Legend
The suspension is resolved by the die roll, and much of the suspense is set by the stakes involved. But you are going to have things leading up to it naturally in play. It isn't like you are just rolling a series of dice and saying what happened. People are explaining what they want to do, asking what they see, NPCs are responding. There is a lot that will be going on prompting the die roll in the first place (and it might not be a single die roll---depends on the situation).
It isn't just a delay. What the players are doing leading up to that is definitely going to affect the roll. I mean, again without specifics it is hard to say, but if the players are trying to psych out the opponent or trying to cheat, that could result in a relevant penalty or bonus. Also they could be trying to get information if things are literally being resolved by the draw of the cards (which might be fitting if they are playing something like poker). The RP shouldn't just be stuff you say between the rolls, or just a way of playing out die roll results. It should be shaping things as well. The die roll is just there to resolve any uncertainties.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Reasonable enough. As you add more decisions points and complications and opportunities to affect that final die roll, you're also, presumably, making it less uncertain, and, you're adding drama & suspense to the intervening time, because what's going on bears on the final result and how that final result is coming about is unfolding.
So, if loading stuff like that in between a declaration and a die roll that's "uncertain" (for the sake of suspense) can /add/ suspense, can't loading it in front of relative certainty (you know the hero isn't going to die, but not what bad stuff might happen shy of that) also add suspense? It seems like it should.
And, IMX, a die roll, however uncertain can be a brief, anti-climactic affair, and so be contributing relatively little suspense.
And of course, the cost of that uncertainty is toted up in dead heroes, anti-climaxes, de-railed stories, and the like. Oh, hey, I'm back to "cost" - that wasn't even intentional.
Bedrockgames
Legend
Again, I am not too worried about every beat being from a story here. You might have anti-climax, dead heroes and the like, but you'll also generate suspense that is meaningful. If I know my character can really die, or easily die, the suspense of that die roll when I trigger a blade trap is palpable. I also find this a much more exciting mode of play. Obviously I don't want my character to die, but when those are the stakes, there is more of a rush of excitement when it is clear a roll might result in death. There is a lot in between of course. Every single die roll won't be 'live or die'. But you will get to those points more if you are handling die rolls honestly and fairly.
I'm also talking much more about organically having things arise between die rolls. This isn't about laying out a plan in advance. It is more like, the players decide to go to a casino and bet all their haul on cricket fights. I don't know how they are going to navigate that situation, but I know from experience I can bring that situation to life and respond believably as they do. And that interaction is where a lot of the interesting details will unfold. I may be resolving each cricket match with a die roll between the handlers or the crickets themselves (I actually have a system for handling cricket fights). The excitement and suspense comes from all sorts of things leading up to the rolls. First, they'll probably spend time figuring out which cricket to bet on. This can be as quick or as drawn out as they need. They might just eyeball them, they could examine them more closely, or they could spend an hour investigation the handlers and trying to gather intel. Each step is going to be like that. But I don' know what the steps are until the players start talking and doing things.
And here the die rolls are important. When those happen, they are big moments that everything can hang on. Stuff they've done will certainly have an influence, could even circumvent a roll. But I think the big suspense is going to be felt around that roll as everything gets revealed.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I agree. That's why just facing an obstacle or challenge or roll of the dice isn't really all that suspenseful - at least not in my experience. You need some other information. That's why I was referring before to knowing something about the antagonist in the situation. A baccarat scene between a PC and an antagonist is a lot more suspenseful if PC knows his antagonist has a hand of 7 when he, himself, has a 5. The hospital scene in The Godfather is suspenseful because we can see the rival gang members walking about the hospital as Michael is trying to hide his father from the ordered hit. And, of course, directors do this all the time in movies - they focus on or reveal the actions of the antagonists to us as observers and then draw out the protagonist's actions until we're on the edge of our seats concerned that they're too slow and will be caught out.
I'm working on doing similar things in a Curse of the Crimson Throne AP for Pathfinder. For those of you who aren't familiar, the PCs ultimately end up on a collision course with an increasingly despotic monarch. At the stage I'm running now, I'm revealing insights into how the queen is building her power base and eroding the PCs' allies - they've witnessed the arrival of recruited troops, they've witnessed the slow gutting of the town guard, they're learning more about the disappearance of certain significant power brokers in the city, they've just had their first run-in with external allies of the queen - all of her pieces are falling into place and doing so fairly visibly. A little of this was part of the AP as written, I'm adding more to flesh things out for the group I'm running including giving them informants who know more about the behind-the-scenes activity. Ultimately, what's happening is they're being given reason to be more and more uneasy with the situation - not only do I expect it to drive their outrage, but also drive their feeling that the outcome is uncertain and perilous - a feeling sharpened by the fact that they are learning so much rather than have it all be hidden or revealed only at the last confrontation.
On definitions: Google gives me suspense = a state or feeling of excited or anxious uncertainty about what may happen.
On outcomes: some outcomes (in films, say, or novels) are known. When I'm watching The Bourne Identity, and 10 or so minutes in Matt Damon's character is involved in some mad hijinks the lead to him being chased by security guards, police, etc - well, I know that he's not going to be shot dead (there's another hour-and-half of running time). And I know that he's not going to be locked up with no hope of escape. And, given the posters I saw on the way into the cinema, I can be pretty sure that he's not going to be arrested and put on trial - because this hasn't been billed as a courtroom drama!
But there can still be suspense - anxious uncertainty over what may happen. So what is the event that is generating anxiety because it is possible but not certain?
Let's say it's the manner and consequences of the character's escape from the security guards and police. What approach to RPGing will allow this to be replicated (in some fashion, to some degree of approximation)? For instance, what would GM prep look like?
For instance, the player(s) make a check, and it fails (so they eg aren't able to successfuly disguise themselves so they can walk out unnoticed) - if we want suspense, rather than just a cut straight to failure of the sort that you and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] noted might be anti-climactic, what should be the response?
Do the players get a reroll by staking more? If so, is the reroll purely metagame (that's how 4e, by default, tends to handle it) or something further in the fiction (that's how DitV handles it, and I've done it that way in 4e).
Or some sort of "fail forward"? Which raises the question of where we get the requisite story elements from eg must they have already been implicit in the scene, or just implicit on someone's PC sheet? (Say as a relationship, or Bond in 5e.)
Something else?
On outcomes: some outcomes (in films, say, or novels) are known. When I'm watching The Bourne Identity, and 10 or so minutes in Matt Damon's character is involved in some mad hijinks the lead to him being chased by security guards, police, etc - well, I know that he's not going to be shot dead (there's another hour-and-half of running time). And I know that he's not going to be locked up with no hope of escape. And, given the posters I saw on the way into the cinema, I can be pretty sure that he's not going to be arrested and put on trial - because this hasn't been billed as a courtroom drama!
But there can still be suspense - anxious uncertainty over what may happen. So what is the event that is generating anxiety because it is possible but not certain?
Let's say it's the manner and consequences of the character's escape from the security guards and police. What approach to RPGing will allow this to be replicated (in some fashion, to some degree of approximation)? For instance, what would GM prep look like?
So how do we do this in a RPG (if we take it as a premise that the GM is not just going to narrate cut-scenes to the players)?
For instance, the player(s) make a check, and it fails (so they eg aren't able to successfuly disguise themselves so they can walk out unnoticed) - if we want suspense, rather than just a cut straight to failure of the sort that you and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] noted might be anti-climactic, what should be the response?
Do the players get a reroll by staking more? If so, is the reroll purely metagame (that's how 4e, by default, tends to handle it) or something further in the fiction (that's how DitV handles it, and I've done it that way in 4e).
Or some sort of "fail forward"? Which raises the question of where we get the requisite story elements from eg must they have already been implicit in the scene, or just implicit on someone's PC sheet? (Say as a relationship, or Bond in 5e.)
Something else?
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I agree about the former, but not about the latter:
A character dying out of the blue because he didn't bother to check everything for traps is not something I enjoy*. I prefer it, if death results from combat encounters; ideally meaningful encounters.
I don't fudge die rolls, so characters will occasionally die through no fault on the player's side, but I vastly prefer if they're forewarned and death is a consequence of their making bad decisions.
(*: Well, you don't give any context: I dislike (death) traps in general and only use them if the characters have had the opportunity to gain hints about their existence. If they choose to cast all warnings aside, it serves them right if their innards become part of a room's decoration...)
Bedrockgames
Legend
I think if you are in a campaign where death traps are known to exist, it can be incredibly suspenseful going into virtually any corridor. If you know for sure this place has traps, it is also going to be a suspenseful time getting through that gauntlet. Obviously if you don't like characters dying without forewarning, this approach isn't for you. As both a player and GM, I enjoy this sort of approach. But everyone in the games I play in, knows what the stakes are.
On character death, I just think it is really important if you want a sense of meaningful risk. I don't like it when it feels like the GM is protecting me from death. If the ogre smashes me with a club and does enough damage to kill me, even if it is anticlimactic or out of the blue, I'd rather that be what happens. That way, when I am staring down a corridor of blade traps, I know the GM isn't going to pull punches and the stakes are high (which for me is going to enhance the suspense of the moment).
On death traps: I quite like them. I think they ought to be used sparingly. If everything is a death trap all the time, then they become meaningless. I generally don't have them come completely out of no where. There are exceptions of course, but most traps in any campaign I run, can be discoverable or navigated around.
It doesn't have to be death though. Any permanent condition is pretty high stakes. I've also used traps that cut off limbs (in the game we play there isn't any kind of limb regeneration ability). In one recent campaign, there was a ghost at the bottom of a well who called for help and ripped tried to rip out the eyes of anyone who peered down (one character went blind). Even in combat, I'll have enemies do the same (we had one character get his leg chopped off with a thrown axe in my current campaign when they were ambushed by a group hired to kill them).
With traps, I don't think there is one size fits all. A lot of people like to avoid the ten foot pole situation for instance (and that can arise if traps are too frequent and too out of the blue). I tend to run smaller, more contained dungeons that usually have one or two traps in them (but they are often quite lethal). Keep in mind, for the past five years or so, I've been running almost exclusively wuxia campaigns and they are often modeled after films like Web of Death where you have this horrifying traps and characters frequently get taken out like flies.
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