The roots of 4e exposed?

Tony Vargas · Jul 13, 2018

Charlaquin said:
So true. As a 4e fan, PF2 is really feeling like a lot of the ideas I loved from that game are getting a second chance. I really hope it catches on. I think it would be delightfully ironic if PF2 became the game 4e fans spurned by 5e adopt.

I can't say I'm see'n the resemblance.

PF was an outright, perfectly legal SRD/OGL clone of 3.5, fans who felt spurned got back exactly what they felt they had lost.

Charlaquin · Jul 13, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
I can't say I'm see'n the resemblance.

PF was an outright, perfectly legal SRD/OGL clone of 3.5, fans who felt spurned got back exactly what they felt they had lost.

It's not 1:1 but it's still an amusing parallel. 4e spurned 3e fans, they turned to PF1. 5e spurned 4e fans, they may end up turning to PF2.

Kobold Boots · Jul 13, 2018

Shasarak said:
If that happened to my character and then DM started bragging about it then I would not turn up with another character.

Sure. That's usually what I append to my "DM can't cheat" argument. The players have a choice as to where they spend their time.

I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. It really sucks when the DM railroads your character like that.

Thank you for the well wishes.

I think it's important to let you know though that at the time I didn't see it as a bad experience. I still don't. Guy was a better friend to me than I was to him and now that I'm the guy that has all of his campaign notes whatever I didn't understand fully I do now.

Maxperson · Jul 13, 2018

Charlaquin said:
It's not 1:1 but it's still an amusing parallel. 4e spurned 3e fans, they turned to PF1. 5e spurned 4e fans, they may end up turning to PF2.

That's unlikely. 3e fans turned to Pathfinder, because it was essentially 3e. Pathfinder 2 is being billed as similar, even compatible with Pathfinder, which means that it is not essentially 4e, so it's not really something that 4e fans would turn to. More likely they will just go to a new system altogether or continue playing 4e.

Maxperson · Jul 13, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
Sure. That's usually what I append to my "DM can't cheat" argument. The players have a choice as to where they spend their time.

Absolutely. The DM cannot cheat, but if he abuses his power he will soon find himself without players.

houser2112 · Jul 13, 2018

Charlaquin said:
As a 4e fan, PF2 is really feeling like a lot of the ideas I loved from that game are getting a second chance. I really hope it catches on. I think it would be delightfully ironic if PF2 became the game 4e fans spurned by 5e adopt.

While there may be a lot of ideas from 4E going into PF2, I don't think its enough to make a 4E fan give up that edition. PF2 lacks AEDU, which I see as the mechanic that defines 4E, the reason to play or not play that game.

Ted Serious · Jul 13, 2018

Charlaquin said:
So true. As a 4e fan, PF2 is really feeling like a lot of the ideas I loved from that game are getting a second chance. I really hope it catches on. I think it would be delightfully ironic if PF2 became the game 4e fans spurned by 5e adopt.

4e failed for want of fans. Even if they all feel spurned by 5e that would be a bad market to sell too.

There may be some convergent evolution. Pathfinder 2 is evolving directly from Pathfinder. Pathfinder evolved from D&D.

4e was a sterile hybrid of D&D and Wow that went extinct and 5e is devolving back towards AD&D.

But sharing some traits is inevitable. They're all still closely related.

Tony Vargas · Jul 13, 2018

Ted Serious said:
4e failed for want of fans. Even if they all feel spurned by 5e that would be a bad market to sell too.

4e failed to hit a revenue goal set by Hasbro that even the entire industry, today, would still be failing to meet.

houser2112 said:
While there may be a lot of ideas from 4E going into PF2, I don't think its enough to make a 4E fan give up that edition. PF2 lacks AEDU, which I see as the mechanic that defines 4E, the reason to play or not play that game.

OTOH, total lack of support for the last 6 years goes a fair way towards getting you to give up an edition.

And AEDU isn't so much the core/essence of 4e, as the consistency with which it was applied. It could have been AED or ADU or LMNOP, or , IDK, everyone getting feats like a 3.0 fighter and all you abilities coming from them...

...hey, that last is maybe just a bit like PF2, afterall.

Kobold Boots · Jul 13, 2018

Tony Vargas said:
4e failed to hit a revenue goal set by Hasbro that even the entire industry, today, would still be failing to meet.

OTOH, total lack of support for the last 6 years goes a fair way towards getting you to give up an edition.

And AEDU isn't so much the core/essence of 4e, as the consistency with which it was applied. It could have been AED or ADU or LMNOP, or , IDK, everyone getting feats like a 3.0 fighter and all you abilities coming from them...

...hey, that last is maybe just a bit like PF2, afterall.

I still play and like first edition

Granted with the advent of 5e, there's more and more 1e love coming out; but I think it was pretty bleak in terms of real support for a while there.

Agreed otherwise.

Charlaquin · Jul 13, 2018

Maxperson said:
That's unlikely. 3e fans turned to Pathfinder, because it was essentially 3e. Pathfinder 2 is being billed as similar, even compatible with Pathfinder, which means that it is not essentially 4e, so it's not really something that 4e fans would turn to. More likely they will just go to a new system altogether or continue playing 4e.

houser2112 said:
While there may be a lot of ideas from 4E going into PF2, I don't think its enough to make a 4E fan give up that edition. PF2 lacks AEDU, which I see as the mechanic that defines 4E, the reason to play or not play that game.

I am a 4e fan seriously considering turning to PF2, so it can’t be that remote a possibility. Even if it’s not a 4e clone, it has a lot of elements of 4e that I love, along with some new ideas that I like such as the 3-Action economy and Bulk. And one very important thing that 4e doesn’t have - active support.

AEDU isn’t really that core to 4e’s identity to me. PF2 already adopted the part of AEDU I liked the most, which was the clear, concise, and consistent presentation of powers and abilities. I get the impression that people who don’t like 4e grossly misunderstand what the people who do like it like about it. That’s also why I’m seeing tons of 4e fans comparing PF2 to 4e, and tons of non-4e fans saying they don’t see the similarity.

Ted Serious said:
4e failed for want of fans. Even if they all feel spurned by 5e that would be a bad market to sell too.

What Tony Vargas said.

Ted Serious said:
There may be some convergent evolution. Pathfinder 2 is evolving directly from Pathfinder. Pathfinder evolved from D&D.

Of course there is. I’m not saying PF2 is directly trying to appeal to 4e fans. I’m saying it’s design appeals to 4e fans for similar reasons 4e does, and might offer us an actively supporter game that suits our tastes.