The roots of 4e exposed? - Page 4
Page 4 of 30 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 291
  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    I really thought that the point about late 3.5 was interesting. It made me realize that I really don't know much about the 3.5 "late game" and I find this a bit disconcerting.
    There's a lot of experimentation for 4e in the late 3e books. Some people called it, others thought it was just the designers experimenting.
    You had at-will magic in Complete Mage, martial "spells" in Tome of Battle, simplified skills in Star Wars Saga, different attempts at magic item math in Magic Item Compendium, skill/ utility powers in Complete Scoundrel, the Delve encounter format in the Expedition to ____ books, etc.
    Read my webcomic & blog at:
    http://www.5mwd.com
    XP Garthanos, Les Moore, satbunny, arjomanes gave XP for this post

  2. #32
    Member
    Pit Fiend (Lvl 26)

    Dannyalcatraz's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Planet Alcatraz & D/FW
    Posts
    37,199
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews
    TravellerSJGWhite WolfNumeneraDoctor WhoD&DForgotten RealmsReaper MinisHero GamesSpelljammerDark SunEberron

    ø Block Dannyalcatraz


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    The vast majority who passed/bailed on 4e did so because it mechanically just wasn't a version of the game they wanted to play. What WoTCs customers wanted was to spend $ on an improved 3x.
    I don’t know the actual relative demographics, but that DOES describe me and about a dozen other gamers I know.

    Not that 4Ed wasn’t fun or didn’t do some things right. To this day, 4Ed’s take on the Warlock- including the AEDU power format- remains my favorite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester David View Post
    There's a lot of experimentation for 4e in the late 3e books. Some people called it, others thought it was just the designers experimenting.
    You had at-will magic in Complete Mage, martial "spells" in Tome of Battle, simplified skills in Star Wars Saga, different attempts at magic item math in Magic Item Compendium, skill/ utility powers in Complete Scoundrel, the Delve encounter format in the Expedition to ____ books, etc.
    I admit I didn’t see the writing on the wall. I was in the “they’re experimenting “ camp.

    I would have loved to see magic of Incarnum get reworked for clarity. ToB I could have lived without, and had no idea about the simplified skills (which ultimately, I didn’t care for). ToM had some good ideas, but it felt...I don’t know...rushed to market.

  3. #33
    Member
    Pit Fiend (Lvl 26)



    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Edenvale, San Jose, CA
    Posts
    13,870
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    ø Block Tony Vargas


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Raith5 View Post
    The other thing that struck me about early 4e was how poor some of the early adventures were. It just seemed that even the designers didnt seem to know how the game was meant to work.
    There's no question that KotSf was horrid. It's telling, because Cordel wrote some great modules in the past, in particular, Heart of Nightfang Spire (yeah, I may be in a minority for thinking that's a masterpiece, but hear me out). HoNS kicked it in 3e, it took all the things that people had started doing to wreck that game and caused them to crash and burn. The Story Hours on here about that module were beautiful. All-caster-scry/buff/teleporter parties getting schooled but hard. It was punishing and brutal - if you metagamed - and a lot of it was turned up to 11.

    KotSf was supposed to be an intro adventure, but it had a couple of fights that were clearly meant to be punishing, and they were made that way using the method you would've in 3e - by taking a PC type and leveling it up above the party's expected level. Only, 'PC type' was "Elite Monster," which had defenses a bit higher than they should've by default, it was leveled up to the hairy edge making its defenses improbably high, and placed in terrain that further upped those defense. Oops. Maybe Cordel was already thinking that 4e players would be powergaming up really high attack bonuses? IDK, but it badly overcompensated for whatever it was he was thinking would require an over-the-top challenge.
    The problem was repeated in the Iron Tooth fight and again in the Paldemar fight in Thunderspire (the rest of Thunderspire was pretty good).
    (And Pyramid of Shadows, though I personally enjoyed it from the player side, and it didn't have any similarly screwed up encounters, was aweful on just a story level, I admit - but it reminded me of a classic, weird/pointless dungeon, and that was enough to make it a certain kind of fun. I guess it helped that I was playing kinda a retro character concept in it.)

    But I really appreciate 4e as a game. We played as a proper roleplaying game and it worked as well as previous editions or 5th - we didnt get so hooked that we "dwelled on the grid" as the article noted.
    The article said something about 4e "succeeded, technically." That's how I've long felt about it. Technically, as a game, 4e was a significant improvement over D&D. (Which is faint praise, indeed.) As an edition of D&D, in every other aspect, prettymuch a trainwreck. D&D just isn't 'just a game' to most of it's fans.

    It was a complicated game but I liked giving everyone powers and it changed my expectations of what I want to see in martial characters and monsters in particular.
    D&D has always been a complex game, in spite of 3e & 4e having more material than AD&D, they were progressively less complicated, because each became more consistent, consolidating the redundant sub-systems and trimming the needless baroque flourishes of the ones before (in 4e's case, with a chainsaw). As has come up in another thread, long experience with D&D insulates most of us from its complexity, the bits that are the same as prior eds just fly under our radar, only the new/changed bits seem to pile on 'added' complexity. There were fewer stealth bits for 4e, more glaring changed/addded ones, because of its genocide of sacred cows.
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Saturday, 30th June, 2018 at 02:09 AM.
    XP heretic888, Jer, MoutonRustique, Aldarc, Raith5 and 1 others gave XP for this post

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Serious View Post
    You're saying 4e was far ahead of its time.

    I'm saying it was an aberration.

    If some future edition is just like 4e, we'll know you're right.
    Not quite. I'm saying that the D&D 3e engine (i.e., the d20 System) essentially remains the core of many systems, such as D&D 4-5e, Pathfinder, 13th Age, Shadow of the Demon Lord, etc. But that core 3e skeleton has its flaws, shortcomings, and pitfalls. But how do you address those flaws?

    4e was one such response, and one underrated in its influence. Pathfinder (aka "3.75e") kept closer to 3e, but that did not make many of the problems of 3e go away. However, Paizo increasingly found the weight of those constant maintenance patches a burden, hence Pathfinder 2. And previews of Pathfinder 2 do appear to show similar solutions for similar problems within the 3e system.

    5e became another response, but it also incorporated some of the "solutions" and approaches that have their roots in 4e. Same is true for these other games that I listed, though with 13th Age as something of an intentional blend of 3e and 4e between their respective lead designers.

    I don't think this necessarily means that 4e was ahead of its time, but simply that there are common trends, patterns, and approaches for the question of "how do we fix/evolve/patch 3e?" and that 4e was simply the first, but its own idiomatic set of reactions to its strengths/shortcomings set the tone for what followed.
    XP heretic888, Charlaquin, Ted Serious, AbdulAlhazred gave XP for this post

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz View Post
    I admit I didn’t see the writing on the wall. I was in the “they’re experimenting “ camp.

    I would have loved to see magic of Incarnum get reworked for clarity. ToB I could have lived without, and had no idea about the simplified skills (which ultimately, I didn’t care for). ToM had some good ideas, but it felt...I don’t know...rushed to market.
    I was in denial as well. The announcement caught me by surprise.
    I thought 3e had lots of life left. And based on the 10ish years of 1e and 2e, I was expecting it to last until 2010 or 2011. Or that they might try and drag things out until 2014 and the 40th anniversary. (Or 2013 so the edition would be out and finished for the 40th.)

    Which is amusing as that second guess was kind right and we did get a new edition that year.

    Never got Magic of Incarnum. After Unearthed Arcana and Tome of Magic, I felt I had more than enough weird magic variants. Still uncertain what the hook is.

    Tome of Battle was funky. There was a lot of very magical effects that were given to fighters. Stuff that wasn’t magic more because they said so than because if felt like mundane. The classes there could do some very weird stuff and not all of it was really justified by flavour.
    Read my webcomic & blog at:
    http://www.5mwd.com

  6. #36
    Dusty Dragon COPPER SUBSCRIBER
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Ancalagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    4,926
    Reviews
    Read 1 Reviews

    ø Block Ancalagon


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Serious View Post
    If they had started with Pathfinder or Dundeon World or even 1e reprints under exactly the same circumstances they could feel exactly the same way.
    I'm not sure what you are saying - this may be a reading problem on my part - do you mean that they (I assume that "they" is "people who like 5e") had started with another game, they would feel the same way... about the older game? About 5e? What are these "same circumstances"

    I'm sure it's very clear in your head, but I can't quite parse your meaning, sorry
    Fear not the slugman

  7. #37
    Dusty Dragon COPPER SUBSCRIBER
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Ancalagon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    4,926
    Reviews
    Read 1 Reviews

    ø Block Ancalagon


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester David View Post
    There's a lot of experimentation for 4e in the late 3e books. Some people called it, others thought it was just the designers experimenting.
    You had at-will magic in Complete Mage, martial "spells" in Tome of Battle, simplified skills in Star Wars Saga, different attempts at magic item math in Magic Item Compendium, skill/ utility powers in Complete Scoundrel, the Delve encounter format in the Expedition to ____ books, etc.
    It makes these discussions more difficult doesn't it? I would have said, a week ago, that I knew 3.X pretty well (with the only obstacle being the amount of time since I last played). Now I'm not so sure.

    ... Ironically, it sounds like this "late 3.5" is more different from 3.5 that 3.5 was from 3.0 :P

    Saga's skill system definitely has echoes in 5e, although implemented differently... a first level character could have like +13 on a skill at level 1 in Saga.
    Fear not the slugman
    XP Saelorn gave XP for this post

  8. #38
    Member
    The Great Druid (Lvl 17)



    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    1,104
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    ø Block Charlaquin


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester David View Post
    There's a lot of experimentation for 4e in the late 3e books. Some people called it, others thought it was just the designers experimenting.
    Designers never "just experiment." When designers start experimenting, it's because they want to try something that the ruleset they're working with doesn't normally accommodate. It doesn't always lead to a new edition of course, but it's almost always a sign that the designers are unsatisfied with the constraints of the ruleset they're working with, and unsatisfied designers are usually a sign of impending rules changes.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
    It makes these discussions more difficult doesn't it? I would have said, a week ago, that I knew 3.X pretty well (with the only obstacle being the amount of time since I last played). Now I'm not so sure.

    ... Ironically, it sounds like this "late 3.5" is more different from 3.5 that 3.5 was from 3.0 :P

    Saga's skill system definitely has echoes in 5e, although implemented differently... a first level character could have like +13 on a skill at level 1 in Saga.
    The at-will magic was the warlock.

    The martial magic was the sword sage. The warblade was interesting but not magical.

    And no late 3e experiment nerfed casting into the ground.

  10. #40
    Member
    The Great Druid (Lvl 17)



    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Oz
    Posts
    1,104
    Reviews
    Read 0 Reviews

    ø Block Charlaquin


    ø Friend+
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Serious View Post
    The at-will magic was the warlock.

    The martial magic was the sword sage. The warblade was interesting but not magical.

    And no late 3e experiment nerfed casting into the ground.
    I like how "the ground" is how you refer to "basically the same as non-casters."
    XP Garthanos, Ted Serious, heretic888 gave XP for this post
    Laugh Aldarc laughed with this post

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Similar Threads

  1. Bring back the exposed boobs on the Monsters!
    By foolish_mortals in forum *Pathfinder, Starfinder, Older D&D Editions (4E, 3.x, 2E, 1E, OD&D), D&D Variants, OSR
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: Friday, 13th January, 2012, 06:19 AM
  2. Heroes #18: Exposed--Season 3/2009
    By Truth Seeker in forum *Varied Geek Talk & Media Lounge
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Thursday, 5th March, 2009, 12:26 AM
  3. Smallville- Exposed (11/3/2005)
    By DanMcS in forum *Varied Geek Talk & Media Lounge
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: Tuesday, 8th November, 2005, 12:58 AM
  4. [MEG-AU] Siege on Ebonring Keep---Exposed!
    By MEG Hal in forum *General Roleplaying Games Discussion
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Saturday, 3rd May, 2003, 02:03 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •