The roots of 4e exposed?

ccs

41st lv DM
If the game had had a robust VTT--e.g. something like Roll20, but with all powers, feats, etc. pre-coded in just like the CB--that wouldn't have been an issue.

IMO, 4e suffered from five major problems, only one of which was truly system-based.
1. The presentation was bad. It needed another year, and a much more "aesthetic" touch. Even if powers had stayed exactly the same, subtle changes in the graphic design of the books (I'm including "how powers are laid out" in that) would have made it feel more familiar, which people really wanted. The design team took too much to heart the idea that 4e needed to be fresh and new--yes, it needed to be fresh and new under the hood, but the exterior needed to be instantly recognizable, and it frankly wasn't.
2. The rules were, unfortunately, a little too fiddly for players. While I absolutely loathe 5e turning 99% of bonuses/penalties into Ad/Dis (the end-of-the-line has become the weapon of first resort, and thus the game leaves DMs high and dry for giving further (dis)advantages to players who already have (Dis)Advantage), 4e did go overboard with them. It also went overboard with number of powers, number of feats...it wasn't a LOT overboard, but it was ENOUGH. It's worth noting, though, that a robust VTT would've taken care of all of this by itself, making system fiddly-ness invisible.
3. The digital tools team took a huge blow from the murder-suicide involving its lead DDI guy, and from what industry people (including Dancey) have said, the team never recovered. The digital tools had already been behind schedule; losing the team lead (and, as far as I can tell, never properly replacing him) made it impossible to catch up, and was a major factor in WotC eventually dropping the price of the DDI subscription.
4. The adventure-writing was ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. The first and third "introductory" adventures (Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows) are widely reviled as some of the worst adventures made for 4e, and arguably D&D generally. Rather than published adventures drawing new players in and showing off what the new system could do, they were bland, dry, grindy affairs that front-loaded literally every clunky thing you could find about the system ON TOP OF railroady, terrible narrative design.
5. The initial lack of a new license, and subsequently the EXTREMELY anti-3PP replacement (the GSL), drove any 3PP support 4e might've enjoyed out to the furthest edges, and it took years for non-WotC developers to provide anything. That, coupled with the near-impossibility of bringing non-WotC rules into the official tools, meant WotC directly created a great deal of competition.

Imagine, if you will, an alternate universe. In this universe, the rules of 4e are almost perfectly identical, apart from putting out (say) about 1/3 as much splat content, cutting out all the crappy, rarely-used powers, feats, etc. and somewhat reducing the amount of bonus bloat. Further, extreme caution was taken with the presentation, such that people don't know whether to heap higher praise on the *game* design or the *graphic* design. In this universe, the 2007 economic downturn doesn't cause closures of major bookstores. Unlike our universe, 4e launches with a fully-integrated digital tools suite: a virtual tabletop, monster and character builders, even that silly "character visualizer" (with, naturally, a link to a WotC-owned or -licensed miniature-making company). Said VTT is better than Roll20 is now, and comes pre-built to use unofficial/3rd party rules content if coded in the right form (and with a tool for DMs to write their own powers/feats and package them up as "mods"). WotC keeps the OGL, and instead of cutting ties with Paizo, asks *them* to write the introductory adventures for 4th edition. A little ways down the line, Kingmaker launches as a deluxe digital adventure path, complete with voice acting from well-known figures like Mark Hamill and Ali Hillis (though purely pen-and-paper versions are also produced).

In this alternate universe, it's hard to imagine Pathfinder ever comes into existence, and debatable as to whether Roll20 does either. Especially if WotC had been open to providing its VTT space to non-D&D rulesets (or even just allowing prior editions on it as well as 4e).

I'm not saying even the sum total of this would have made 4e definitely so successful that Hasbro wouldn't still can it for failing to meet Core Brand standards (which may have been impossible even if 110% of everything 4e did was INSANELY successful for a TTRPG). But I am saying that the combination of *relatively subtle* changes to the books themselves (whether in rules or in presentation) plus 4e not having literally every venture attempting to improve the line (cutting ties with Paizo, dropping the OGL, pushing digital tools) blow up in its face...well, I don't think 5e would be four years old if that were the case. I'm not even sure we'd have 5e at all.

Wow, that's some imagination you have.
 

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ccs

41st lv DM
The irony is that I got banned out of innumerable threads for saying things that are in this article. In fact, to this day there are people who will claim that any statement that suggested 4e took design hints from World of Warcraft is blatant nonsense and such statements have ulterior motives.

Honestly, I'm going to stop reading the article before it finishes, because it's bringing back such hard feelings about how I was treated here, that I find myself thinking of quitting EnWorld just reading it.

The real irony is that when I started saying things like this, I wasn't by and large being critical of the new design. I was in fact actually happy with what I perceived as some of the goals of the design. It was only later that people took up my comments about how the design was taking cues from World of Warcraft as a sign that the new design was "too video gamey" or that the design was taking queues from how the MtG team had cleaned up the rules in 6e to make them more machine readable "too much like a board game". My core complaint against the design as it actually emerged is buried innocuously in the article at the point I stopped reading: "Ideally, it would help DMs enough to make running a bad game nearly impossible." That idea was the one really bad idea that I feel undermined all the other ones.

Wouldn't you love to get your hands on some of whatever they were smoking when they had that thought?
 

Then you never read ToM or MoI. Both of which are casting thats severely constrained.
Playing a Binder was a lot of fun. But I'd rather play an Adept than a Shadowcaster, and from what I remember the True Namer (or whatever it was called) was a really bad fit for the game, since it was based around the skill system and easy to abuse.

I never bothered with Magic of Incarnum so I can't comment on that.
 

The problem is that I was in a minority in for being ready for this and they did not do a great job of engaging the community and explaining why they did things or providing options.
I was very much not ready for a new edition.

The cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon felt very much like a betrayal, and I signed up for Paizo's new adventure paths sight unseen. When I found out the reason all the licenses had been brought in-house - to create a new edition I didn't want and didn't like - it only made things worse. Even at the time I knew it was an emotional reaction rather than a logical one, and I am much more relaxed about it now, but for me it turned Dungeons and Dragons into just another game. I'm happy to play it (any edition), and I'm happy to play something else instead. It turned me from a fan into a consumer.
 

pemerton

Legend
There is a popular series of articles on these boards that stats up mythic figures (Achilles, Jean D'Arc, Lancelot, etc) for 5e. Those statblocks are almost entirely combat-oriented. They don't contain Ideals, Bonds or Flaws, despite these being a core 5e mechanic for expressing character personalities.

The 5e skill system is very similar to the 4e one, but lacks a coherent resolution method.

The notion that 4e is in some way distinctive among versions of D&D for making combat, and the mechanical resolution of mechanic, one important focus of play is one I find hard to take seriously. It's differences lie elsewhere: the lack of asymmetrical resource suites across different classes of PCs is a main one, and that - together with other mechanical features like short rests and healing surges - means that the notion of the "adventuring day" curated by the GM as a type of resource management game no longer has much relevance to play. From this flow further consequences for adventure design, encounter design, action resolution, adjudication of individual actions, etc.

None of those features seem to be very popular among the market for D&D as a RPG.
 

You're saying 4e was far ahead of its time.

I'm saying it was an aberration.

If some future edition is just like 4e, we'll know you're right.

No new edition will be 'just like 4e' but one could go FAR BEYOND 4e in the directions it took, which would be incredibly awesome in my book. In fact, that is probably the only game WotC could publish at this time which would get me to pay money for it.
 

Interesting that one thing 4e people like about 4e was not planned but was done because they ran out of time (I.e. the standard power structure).

I love 4e but it could have used more development time, but every edition prior to 5e could probably say that. Coming from the 80s D&D straight to 4e (due to a break in playing) I was a little more sympathetic to a less than polished game.

I'm very very very skeptical about that whole standard power structure thing. It may be true that ONE GUY saw it that way. However, it took a LOT of work to construct coherent sets of powers for 8 classes using AEDU structure. It would have been vastly easier and quicker to simply relax the constraints. Look at the e-classes. You're telling me it was easier to simply use AEDU and make 90+ powers for PHB1 Fighter (weapon master) than to simply make the Knight or Slayer? I don't think so. This statement doesn't even pass a basic smell test.

People like to blame what they perceive to be their failures on external forces, which is exactly what this kind of statement is.

OTOH many of us take AEDU as one of the great strengths of 4e, and I'm SURE many of the designers felt the same way. They certainly leveraged it a whole lot.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The real problem with 4e is that it is just too slow.

I just dont see how blaming the community or lack of decent adventures or lack of DDI is going to solve the real fundamental problem with the rules.

That may have been A problem with 4e, but it had problems far more fundamental than that. The main one is, I think, badly misreading their market and producing the wrong game for the majority of it. Basically, it's a New Coke problem - they were producing solutions to problems that weren't inherent to most of their customers. Like Coca-Cola producing New Coke in an effort to be more competitive within the Pepsi-drinking community and in taste-tests (which their Coke-drinking customers at the time didn't care about), WotC was responding to company-driven needs to woo MMORPG players and make the game more online-friendly more than their customers' needs at the time.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Interesting that one thing 4e people like about 4e was not planned but was done because they ran out of time (I.e. the standard power structure)..

Eh, some “4e people” like it. I think it’s probably even fair to say most of us. But there is definitely a significant portion of us who don’t, and we’re greatful when the PHB 3 and Essentials broke that mold. Personally, that was my second biggest gripe with what I think is otherwise the best version of D&D yet (right after the magic item treadmill).
 

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