What no Luke Cage love?

Umbran said:

She doesn't implode *because of the alcohol*, though. The alcohol is presented as a result of her problems, not a cause of them. The alcohol is treated as "self medication" for her other issues, and itself doesn't get in her way - she never loses a fight for being drunk, does she? And I know a number of people who love JJ, and think that her hard-drinking is there to show that she's badass, because ability to hold one's liquor is seen as a sign of strength.

Those are the reasons why I think of it as being normalized - especially the hard-drinking as a sign of strength.

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I tend to disagree. The drinking is there to show that she's broken. It makes her revenge hit that much more deeply. I have many of my own people to validate that interpretation

Umbran said:

/snp
Before I question your statement here... define what you think qualifies as stakes for me, please?

I will note that what I expect what you are calling the "stakes" are not finalized in the season itself - they carry over into The Defenders. I'd say there are loads of personal and emotional stakes in Iron Fist

/snip

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Loads of emotion and personal stakes? Oh, noes, I have to get my multi-billion dollar company back because, if I don't, I'll only be the chosen one savior. Gee, yeah, totally see the stakes there. Like I said, the bad guy is a smarmy businessman who isn't actually all that wrong. Danny as CEO is a financial disaster.

Like I said, the stakes are totally unimportant. If Danny fails, he's STILL Iron Fist. The bad guy is actually 100% right - Danny is a complete incompetent for running the business and totally unsuitable.

Couple that to uninspiring fight scenes, boring acting and a storyline that's a total snooze fest, it's not surprising that Iron Fist falls very, very flat.

Hussar said:

Loads of emotion and personal stakes? Oh, noes, I have to get my multi-billion dollar company back

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No, dude. The company isn't the thing at all. You seem to have entirely missed it.

The entire show is about *family*, loyalty, and personal identity. The company is merely a McGuffin around which to have conflict to test these things.

Like I said, the stakes are totally unimportant. If Danny fails, he's STILL Iron Fist.

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Again, you've misidentified the real conflict for Danny, and therefore miss the stakes. In K'un-Lun, he was an instrument, a tool, a living weapon. Not a person. In his teens, his development *as a person* was arrested. He leaves in large part to discover who the heck he really is. And, like most people, he feels he is largely defined by his family, so he tries to return to it.

The stakes are, for Danny, whether he really is just a sword to be used by others. The stakes, for him, are not dissimilar than for, say, Jean Valjean in Les Miserables - Who am I?

Umbran said:

She doesn't implode *because of the alcohol*, though. The alcohol is presented as a result of her problems, not a cause of them. The alcohol is treated as "self medication" for her other issues, and itself doesn't get in her way - she never loses a fight for being drunk, does she? And I know a number of people who love JJ, and think that her hard-drinking is there to show that she's badass, because ability to hold one's liquor is seen as a sign of strength.

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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe she never loses a fight because of her alcoholism, but in JJ it's not really about that. It's about a superhero who is a failure in every day life. And her alcoholism sure as heck ruins everything around her in her every day life. It is both a symptom and a cause of her self destructive behavior.

The reason her 'attitude' and drinking is entertaining to us, is not because she is a 'badass', but because she is a failure. She's an anti hero. We want to see her fail, and then see her pick her life back up again. This is one of the things that undermines Luke Cage as a character: He doesn't seem to have any flaws. He's boring and invincible on top of that. The only thing he has to lose, is people around him. While JJ on the other hand, is always a wreck. As strong as she may be in a fight, she is just as weak in every day life.

Meanwhile Dare Devil is constantly torn between his conscience and having to lie to his friends to maintain his secret identity. I think what I like most about Dare Devil, is that although he is a good guy, it is ultimately his undoing. It is really hard to not kill bad guys, when the bad guys don't play by the same rules. Especially the second season with Elektra and the Punisher do a great job of exploring his morality, and challenging it.

I wish Luke Cage was challenged in the same way, but I feel there's not much to his character to begin with that can be challenged.