D&D 4E Melee Training Restored

AbdulAlhazred said:

Yeah, like PrCs or a bit like level dips in some sense. I don't know PF well at all, so I can't comment on archetypes. Its more powerful in that it subsumes all these different 'languages' (the feat language, the PP language, the ED language, the item language) of 4e, so now things are more general.

So, the leveling... I inverted the concept of level advancement. Instead of leveling up to get 'stuff', you get 'stuff' to level up, but in the more generalized sense of gaining access to new character features (IE the new universal feat 'language'). As an example, if your Knight acquires a Flaming Sword, then he becomes a level 2 Knight! His new class feature is the sword (maybe it is a +1 sword with some attributes basically). He'll also get added bonuses, hit points, etc. of course. Later he might train under a master he meets high on a dangerous mountain and get Sword Expert boon, now he's level 3...

Click to expand...

You've impressed me many times over the years, but that's brilliant.

To what degree is the character shaped by the player as it levels vs having boons presented by the DM shaping the character?

Tony Vargas said:

You've impressed me many times over the years, but that's brilliant.

To what degree is the character shaped by the player as it levels vs having boons presented by the DM shaping the character?

Click to expand...

WRT to that I think the point is that it is story shaping the character and players are part of creating that story so both depending on how "led" things are - however insert the concept of wish lists and they become story driving activities.

Cuh Culain basically had a series of training adventures near career beginning where he went around finding masters to learn his feats... Some where stories in there own right though others seem a handwave where they simply mention that he learned K, L and M from and exceded famous master X and Y and Z.

One could also mechanize the process of making things your own. In my martial practices I had several (Sensei, Riddle of Steel, Grand Mastery) etc that basically allowed one in terms of Abduls system convert what the DM/Story gave you into something which is more completely yours. IE they give personal immediate story power over the nature of your boons (martial techinques), by way of an intermediary of Karma Points.

also serious thread drift going on here...

Garthanos said:

also serious thread drift going on here...

Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry about that...

Tony Vargas said:

You've impressed me many times over the years, but that's brilliant.

To what degree is the character shaped by the player as it levels vs having boons presented by the DM shaping the character?

Click to expand...

Well, the context is a pretty story now kind of a game, so the players SHOULD be doing stuff that is engaging their avowed interests. I mean, the GM could be a stinker and try to foist stuff on them, but its an odd kind of way to burden players, giving their PCs more levels! At least the way I play, the players decide something like "we'll take on a quest to climb the mountain in order to acquire the secrets to superior fighting ability from the monks who live on the top." Or at least "my character wants to be the greatest fighter ever" and he finds out that is the way to proceed. So, what other boon is he going to get besides "Sword Master" when he gets up there? Truthfully its going to be a collaboration, but in a lot of cases players will say "I think that incredible stunt I just pulled is worth a level, can I become a Mighty Jumper?", that kind of thing.

I think it may be true that the control of what you get is a bit less explicit than in 4e. Retraining is certainly also a possibility.

Anyway, it definitely stands the usual models of character advancement on their heads. You can also make a good model of how old characters 'fade away', they just put aside their boons and become lower level! Once you don't wield the Sword of Flame anymore, you sort of diminish. Your connections to fate and the eternal sources of power wanes. Old adventurers (those who don't die or reach some apotheosis, just fade).

Garthanos said:

WRT to that I think the point is that it is story shaping the character and players are part of creating that story so both depending on how "led" things are - however insert the concept of wish lists and they become story driving activities.

Cuh Culain basically had a series of training adventures near career beginning where he went around finding masters to learn his feats... Some where stories in there own right though others seem a handwave where they simply mention that he learned K, L and M from and exceded famous master X and Y and Z.

One could also mechanize the process of making things your own. In my martial practices I had several (Sensei, Riddle of Steel, Grand Mastery) etc that basically allowed one in terms of Abduls system convert what the DM/Story gave you into something which is more completely yours. IE they give personal immediate story power over the nature of your boons (martial techinques), by way of an intermediary of Karma Points.

Click to expand...

Right, the boon system IS a magic item construction system as well. You complete an adventure to find the mystic ingredients/unknown ritual/master smith/whatever and the reward is your new item!

AbdulAlhazred said:

Well, the context is a pretty story now kind of a game, so the players SHOULD be doing stuff that is engaging their avowed interests. At least the way I play, the players decide something like "we'll take on a quest to climb the mountain in order to acquire the secrets to superior fighting ability from the monks who live on the top." Or at least "my character wants to be the greatest fighter ever" and he finds out that is the way to proceed. So, what other boon is he going to get besides "Sword Master" when he gets up there? Truthfully its going to be a collaboration...

I think it may be true that the control of what you get is a bit less explicit than in 4e. Retraining is certainly also a possibility.

Anyway, it definitely stands the usual models of character advancement on their heads.

Click to expand...

AbdulAlhazred said:

Right, the boon system IS a magic item construction system as well. You complete an adventure to find the mystic ingredients/unknown ritual/master smith/whatever and the reward is your new item!

Click to expand...

Doesn't that make adventuring even more about leveling/acquiring boons, in that you not only get exp for adventuring, which means you level, but need to set out on adventures that will get you to level the way you want?
And, I know 'story now' is not exactly all about creating J. Michael Stravinsky 5-year story arcs, but it does seem like it could be a stretch to get a genre story out of that.

Tony Vargas said:

Doesn't that make adventuring even more about leveling/acquiring boons, in that you not only get exp for adventuring, which means you level, but need to set out on adventures that will get you to level the way you want?
And, I know 'story now' is not exactly all about creating J. Michael Stravinsky 5-year story arcs, but it does seem like it could be a stretch to get a genre story out of that.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't think it is any more hostile to story than the 4e XP system, which is really already not TOO far off from the same thing (IE you adventure, you ALWAYS get a basically fixed amount of XP with little variation, and then you get some stuff along the way and level).

This is just making things tighter and more explicit. You DO adventure to get stuff so you will level, or "and then you will level". I think it is just conceptually simpler overall. And yes, you would set out on adventures that meet your expectations and goals. That too sound very story focused to me.

In short, I don't see any lack of story arcs. In fact, IN THEORY (I haven't seen this happen) you might plan your character's advancement AS a story arc! I want to become the greatest dwarven warrior of all time, well I'm going to need the Axe of Dwarvish Lords for that, right?