Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
In this case they have humor and almost as much snark as us LOL
D&D 4E Melee Training Restored
In this case they have humor and almost as much snark as us LOL
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I never cared AT ALL for anything that amounted to 'just use any old stat for X'. Ability scores exist FOR A REASON, they characterize your character. They're the UR of character design. Those choices should weigh heavy on everything which comes after.
Of course the concomitant is that each ability score should present a unique and viable pathway to interesting play for, at least, each power source. They should all be viable and valid choices of relatively equal weight, though its fine if some choices are better for specific classes. It should however represent mapping of different concepts. The fast hero, the strong hero, the wise hero, the commanding hero, the durable hero, the intelligent hero. This is the essence of D&D, things like Melee Training undermine that essence (and I apply the same approbrium to other similar feats and such, though I am perfectly fine with their being niche ways to mitigate certain choices, like the 'substitute for an MBA' powers in 4e).
Anyway, I was glad to see it cut back, though total elimination wouldn't have hurt my feelings any.
Of course the concomitant is that each ability score should present a unique and viable pathway to interesting play for, at least, each power source. They should all be viable and valid choices of relatively equal weight, though its fine if some choices are better for specific classes. It should however represent mapping of different concepts. The fast hero, the strong hero, the wise hero, the commanding hero, the durable hero, the intelligent hero. This is the essence of D&D, things like Melee Training undermine that essence (and I apply the same approbrium to other similar feats and such, though I am perfectly fine with their being niche ways to mitigate certain choices, like the 'substitute for an MBA' powers in 4e).
Anyway, I was glad to see it cut back, though total elimination wouldn't have hurt my feelings any.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Early on in D&D I was rather annoyed by the Brute Strength was all that mattered for "hitting" things with your sword 
- my dad was in the martial arts and I knew better.
At the point of 4e coming along we have not only rogues who feel like they fight with precision and grace but others emphasizing mental attributes like avengers whose physical attacks are driven by perception, insight and divine will and Bards whose swordplay is flamboyant trickery and spirit which by using a single attribute (maintain simplicity for game purposes) yet DEFINE a fighting style with the attribute used.
To me Melee training is just more of that... ie enabling varioius character types to continue operating within their style, even within a surprise circumstance or even not so surprise when a warlords plan comes together.
Now actually it may be that giving every class things which you can use as a Basic attack might be a better solution than the feat... I definitely still approve of the feat in its original context and it was nowhere near causing a problem till AHEM.
- my dad was in the martial arts and I knew better. At the point of 4e coming along we have not only rogues who feel like they fight with precision and grace but others emphasizing mental attributes like avengers whose physical attacks are driven by perception, insight and divine will and Bards whose swordplay is flamboyant trickery and spirit which by using a single attribute (maintain simplicity for game purposes) yet DEFINE a fighting style with the attribute used.
To me Melee training is just more of that... ie enabling varioius character types to continue operating within their style, even within a surprise circumstance or even not so surprise when a warlords plan comes together.
Now actually it may be that giving every class things which you can use as a Basic attack might be a better solution than the feat... I definitely still approve of the feat in its original context and it was nowhere near causing a problem till AHEM.
Tony Vargas
Legend
wrong thread...
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I also put insight on the skill list of the class with insightful presence on its potential feature list because you know.
However I really do not know how to fix the issue in a broad sort of way. Even if I made a 4e descendant system of my own.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Early on in D&D I was rather annoyed by the Brute Strength was all that mattered for "hitting" things with your sword
At the point of 4e coming along we have not only rogues who feel like they fight with precision and grace but others emphasizing mental attributes like avengers whose physical attacks are driven by perception, insight and divine will and Bards whose swordplay is flamboyant trickery and spirit which by using a single attribute (maintain simplicity for game purposes) yet DEFINE a fighting style with the attribute used.
To me Melee training is just more of that... ie enabling varioius character types to continue operating within their style, even within a surprise circumstance or even not so surprise when a warlords plan comes together.
Now actually it may be that giving every class things which you can use as a Basic attack might be a better solution than the feat... I definitely still approve of the feat in its original context and it was nowhere near causing a problem till AHEM.
Right, and I'm not actually arguing at all against this point of view. All I'm arguing is that when the game gave us X tools, and some of them were meant to characterize 'strong hero' and some 'fast hero' then adding an option that gave 'fast hero' all of 'strong hero' mojo wasn't a well thought out option for that game!
So, yes, I'd be all up for a rogue at-will that was, full up, an MBA. It would probably be one of the less flashy and damaging options, but it could be slightly better than a vanilla MBA. It would certainly target REF and might give some sort of minor benefit when used as an OA or something.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
What's hard to fix? Just give everyone 4 skills....
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I suppose if we can make sure with Practices and the like that everyone gets as much awesome as the arcanist. Note I actually do not have that many practices based on athletics.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Here's my total list, which contains both practices and rituals in your parlance.
[h=2]List of Practices[/h]
| Level | Check | Type | Keywords | Name |
| 1 | Engineering | Procedure | Engineering, Martial | Alarm |
| 1 | Nature | Ritual | Life | Animal Messenger |
| 5 | Arcana | Ritual | Arcana, Shadow | Arcane Watcher |
| 7 | Leadership | Procedure | Marshal | Battle Speech |
| 11 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit | Blood Binding |
| 2 | Arcana | Ritual | Shadow, Arcana | Charm |
| 9 | Religion | Ritual | Arcana, Spirit | Contact Higher Plane |
| 1 | Arcana | Ritual | Arcana | Dark Sight |
| 3 | Bluff | Procedure | Bluff | Disguise |
| 1 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit | Dispel Magic |
| 6 | Arcana | Ritual | Shadow, Arcana | Divination |
| 17 | Arcana | Ritual | Elemental | Elemental Gateway |
| 13 | Arcana | Ritual | Elemental | Elemental Link |
| 3 | Heal | Procedure | Heal | Embalming |
| 5 | Bluff | Procedure | Martial, Bluff | False Style |
| 12 | Survival | Procedure | Survival | Feign Death |
| 3 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit, Arcana | Find |
| 1 | Bluff | Procedure | Bluff, Streetwise | Forgery |
| 4 | Engineering | Procedure | Engineering, Martial | Fortify |
| 2 | Perception | Ritual | Shadow, Perception | Golden Ear |
| 9 | Arcana | Ritual | Shadow | Illusion |
| 3 | Thievery | Procedure | Thievery | Improvise |
| 3 | Survival | Procedure | Survival, Heal | Iron Body |
| 3 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit, Arcana | Magic Circle |
| 4 | Engineering | Ritual | Elemental, Engineering | Make |
| 8 | Nature | Ritual | Life, Spirit | One With the Land |
| 10 | Religion | Ritual | Spirit | Planar Crossing |
| 10 | Religion | Ritual | Spirit | Projection |
| 3 | History | Procedure | History | Read Script |
| 1 | Religion | Ritual | Spirit | Remove Curse |
| 5 | Survival | Procedure | Survival | Running |
| 1 | Religion | Ritual | Spirit | Seal |
| 3 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit | Second Sight |
| 5 | Insight | Procedure | Insight, Spirit | Sense Aura |
| 9 | Stealth | Procedure | Shadow, Stealth | Shadow Walk |
| 6 | Religion | Ritual | Shadow | Speak With the Dead |
| 11 | Arcana | Ritual | Arcana | Summon Item |
| 4 | Nature | Ritual | Life | Summon Steed |
| 4 | Diplomacy | Ritual | Spirit, Diplomacy | Tongues |
| 1 | Nature | Procedure | Nature | Train Animal |
| 1 | Survival | Procedure | Nature | Trap |
| 1 | Religion | Ritual | Spirit | Truth Tell |
| 1 | Arcana | Ritual | Spirit | Undo |
