Pathfinder 2 Character Sheet #4: Seelah, Human Paladin

TheCosmicKid said:

I really don't like what it says about PF2's approach to skills that you need a feat to pick pockets.

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Makes sense to me. It's not really the kind of thing anyone can just do without specialized training. And keep in mind that as a Skill Feat, it only comes at the opportunity cost of other skill feats, which you get every other level (or every level for the class most likely to actually want this feat), and that anyone who wants to can get it for free at first level by taking the Urchin Background.

Charlaquin said:

Makes sense to me. It's not really the kind of thing anyone can just do without specialized training.

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Specialized training such as might come with acquiring proficiency in a skill named "Thievery"?

And even untrained people can try it. I'm certainly no fingersmith, but there is nothing physically stopping me from putting my hand in somebody else's pocket the next time I'm on a crowded bus. Yes, it's harder to do it successfully than lifting an unattended item, but that can be better modeled with a penalty to the would-be-thief's roll (a penalty which a skill feat might well eliminate).

Charlaquin said:

And keep in mind that as a Skill Feat, it only comes at the opportunity cost of other skill feats, which you get every other level (or every level for the class most likely to actually want this feat), and that anyone who wants to can get it for free at first level by taking the Urchin Background.

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Acknowledged. Nevertheless, the question it raises is how many other common actions are gated by skill feats this way, which might make the opportunity cost that you're downplaying actually pretty darn steep. Is a low-level criminal going to have to choose to be a Pickpocket or a Locksmith or a Card Cheat? Because in PF1, those would not have been exclusive, and I at least have never thought to myself, "Wow, these skills sure are overpowered for being so flexible, better put some limits on them."

Charlaquin said:

Makes sense to me. It's not really the kind of thing anyone can just do without specialized training. And keep in mind that as a Skill Feat, it only comes at the opportunity cost of other skill feats, which you get every other level (or every level for the class most likely to actually want this feat), and that anyone who wants to can get it for free at first level by taking the Urchin Background.

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It's not for free though. It comes at the cost of your background feat.
So Seelah is given a feat she cannot use and likely will never use, and the rogue has to spend a class or background feat to do something expected by baseline proficiency.

Jester David said:

It's not for free though. It comes at the cost of your background feat.
So Seelah is given a feat she cannot use and likely will never use, and the rogue has to spend a class or background feat to do something expected by baseline proficiency.

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Yes. However there's a player somewhere that created Seelah, and that player wanted the background and the feat as a result of coming up with their backstory.

That's not a problem with the rules. That's a player weighing options and choosing one that fits for them. If you don't like it, don't do it yourself.

KB

Kobold Boots said:

Yes. However there's a player somewhere that created Seelah, and that player wanted the background and the feat as a result of coming up with their backstory.

That's not a problem with the rules. That's a player weighing options and choosing one that fits for them. If you don't like it, don't do it yourself.

KB

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Paizo's staff created Seelah. There was no player. Her backstory was created for her PF1 character, which didn't reflect her past as a thief.
Then they created this character and took feats to match that backstory, creating an inoptimal character that has a feat they will NOT use as their Thievery score is -2.

They took a character designed potentially for new players and introducing the game and wasted a quarter of their feats on an option that you're penalised for attempting while also making the character feel potentially weaker than the rest of the party.

techno said:

Not sure I want to track damage to shields (dents) in detail. That seems *more* fiddly than even Pathfinder 1. Isn't this supposed to be an easier, faster, and streamlined version of the game? If so, I'm not seeing it.

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Most hits won't dent. It's not like tracking HP. When you get hit for more than the shield can take you check off a box. I don't see it as being very complex.

Jester David said:

Paizo's staff created Seelah.... and I'm missing your point entirely to complain about something that means nothing to anyone else.

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Fixed that for you.

Nathan Fish said:

Most hits won't dent. It's not like tracking HP. When you get hit for more than the shield can take you check off a box. I don't see it as being very complex.

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"Most hits won't dent"? With hardness 5, only the weakest of hits will not dent.

Kobold Boots said:

Fixed that for you.

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Because it's not an issue for you it can't be an issue for someone else?

Do you foresee ANY situation where Seelah, a paladin, would want to attempt to pick a pocket?
But... can you see a situation where a new player, upon seeing that her character can pick pockets, attempts to do so. And is disappointing by the character's absolute inability to successfully do so?
There is a trap option on the sample character. It unlocks the option to do X but not the actually ability to do so. It's like giving someone a feat that increases their fly speed by 20 feet, but not the ability to actually fly.


Had this actually been a personal character, that's different. It's one player making a choice for themselves. Okay, in that instance they're (probably) fine with the choice of investing a non-insignificant amount of their starting resources on flavour. (Like a wizard getting heavy armour proficiency with a feat.)
But.. again, this is not something created by one player for their personal use. This is a sample PC built, likely by committee, to show off the system, embody their iconic characters, and also be used by brand new players who are being introduced to the game.
This is the playtest version of the pregens that will be used by every Pathfinder 2 Society game. And I am giving feedback on its design.

They had problems with in-optimal characters in the previous iteration. Harsk, the dwarf ranger, was a hugely problematic character, as the crossbow was not a mechanically strong item. And so players of the iconic were largely penalized in play for "story" reasons (aka how the artist drew the character).


Also, what is this telling me about the game?
Well, it's telling me that the system really isn't designed for characters whose backstories are playing against type. Because you apparently don't get any *meaningful* bonuses for that. Or that backstory options are limited as the least problematic option was one that conferred no benefit.
Neither really sell me to the game.

Does thievery match Seelah's backstory? Kinda. She was an urchin living on the streets who stole the helmet of a paladin, and ran with it. The paladin caught her and showed her compassion, which prompted young Seelah to follow in her footsteps and become her student, eventually earning her mentor's armour.
There's lots of elements to that backstory that could work with a different feat. Surviving in the streets. Being mentored by a holy warrior.
(It's not like the Pickpocket feat would have really helped with that backstory. Either the helmet was off and thus no feat was required, or it was worn and not subject to the feat.)

Ebon Shar said:

Until the optimizers get to it and then there will be one "right" way to build a Paladin.

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Is character customization a sham because in reality it will only allow a the "most optimized" character to be built the majority of the time, so there's really no customization?