Extreme self-preservation

Dausuul · Aug 20, 2018

Oofta said:
I don't disagree (and I don't think there is one answer) but how is the rogue going to know the enemy is distracted if they can't see the enemy? It's one thing if they're sneaking around to flank and attack from an unexpected direction but that's far different from moving around a corner and then popping back out a few seconds later.

I give rogues plenty of chance to hide, but it's not going to work in every combat. It's not like it's needed for getting in sneak attack damage any more so putting some reasonable restrictions doesn't really hurt them all that much.

It's not that you pop out when you know the enemy is distracted; it's that you pop in when they're distracted, allowing you to "go off the grid" more efficiently than other PCs.

I'll freely admit that I am trying to make the "hide and snipe" tactic work as reliably as possible for rogues, even if it means slightly contorting the fiction. This is because:

I want to encourage the use of terrain in combat.
I feel that this is how rogues are intended to work.
The DM's time and attention in combat are a very limited resource, so I'd rather have hard-and-fast rules that the player can handle independently.

Scary · Aug 20, 2018

BluejayJunior said:
They could maybe do this once per battle. But after that, the enemy is not going keep falling for it. You can't really just stay in one place and keeping hiding and attacking. Everyone knows where you are.

It sounds like you are playing a West Marches style game. (If you're unsure about the term, google it. Matt Colville has a good video explaining it). I've thought those could be a lot of fun, but everyone still needs to be on the same page. In your case, everyone only cares about their characters survival, not getting loot. I think one of the interesting things of a WM game is the threat level. And since they usually involve less roleplaying, you don't have to feel as attached to your character. I think the best thing to do is, like others said, talk to other DMs and see if they have the same problem. Then talk to the organizers and see if you/they can post something reminding players that the best way to survive and succeed is to work together.
This is mean, but if things don't change, I would probably have new monsters attack characters that were selfish. A big party wipe due to lack of obvious lack of teamwork might get word around and cause people to rethink their actions.

I am very familiar with Matt Collviles videos and West Marches, and no, I was referring to player cooperation. That is a big, big part of playing D&D.

smbakeresq · Aug 20, 2018

rgoodbb said:
This will probably not be helpful to you, but if players started doing this in a game I was DM'ing

Everyone who regularly fights and tries to help their party members, levels up.

Everyone who regularly runs and deliberately makes sure another party member gets hurt, levels down

Also their alignments shift each time until they are no longer allowed to play.

End of running/backstabbing/non-cohesive players

But as suggested, you should probably talk to folks before that.

Agree except for the leveling down part. However, if you don't participate then you shouldn't get xp. I often divide the xp for an encounter into group size +1, and give the extra share to the MVP of the encounter. Since I give xp for non-combat encounters, this lets everyone be a hero at some point. Some examples from yesterday session with kids from the Hill Giant Steading of Chief Guh:

1. Monk was MVP by thinking of and executing stealthy approach to guard tower and FOB 3 of them to prevent them from ringing gong.
2. Life Cleric was MVP by preventing another PC from executing a bound prisoner (an evil act.)
3. Paladin with GW and GW feat and Giant Slaying weapon was MVP by absolutely bashing the living crap out of giants and giant types in the feast hall main combat and after killing chief telling the rest "Chief is dead you are free" having some less loyal types flee.

You learn less by sitting in the back row, that applies to D&D also.

smbakeresq · Aug 20, 2018

Dausuul said:
I see it a little differently. Combat is fast-paced and chaotic. Combatants have a low-level sense of where their opponents are, but it's not like they have beholder eyes simultaneously tracking each enemy at all times. It's more of a gestalt awareness thing--as you dance sideways to dodge the fighter's sword coming at your head, you catch a glimpse of the monk circling behind you in your peripheral vision, and your brain puts "monk, behind me" on its mental map for the next few seconds.

If you don't see somebody for a little bit, however, your map goes stale. You can't keep staring at the place where they went out of sight, waiting for them to re-emerge; you're busy trying to not get killed by their friends! (Or you would be, if the friends weren't trying to hide behind each other.) When they pop out again, they get a momentary advantage. That's what the Hide action represents: You get behind cover and you wait a few seconds for the enemy to be distracted.

The rogue's special talent is to time this move when the enemy is already distracted. They have a knack for evading that gestalt awareness, which is why they don't have to burn an entire round hiding.

This is essentially it and I would give the bonus in most cases (advantage on attack rolls) as you are popping out and shooting so fast it would tough to react. Remember the light conditions also, dim light is lightly obscured so perception checks are with disadvantage, so subtract 5 from the passive perception score. If you have a rogue that does this then it is very good for the front line to brightly light the targets and keep them that way and the rogue to stay in the dim light area. The light spell is good for this also, cast it on a rock or slingstone and throw it into the middle of the enemy (target a square) or an arrowhead and shoot it even farther.

Ovinomancer · Aug 20, 2018

Oofta said:
I don't disagree (and I don't think there is one answer) but how is the rogue going to know the enemy is distracted if they can't see the enemy? It's one thing if they're sneaking around to flank and attack from an unexpected direction but that's far different from moving around a corner and then popping back out a few seconds later.

I give rogues plenty of chance to hide, but it's not going to work in every combat. It's not like it's needed for getting in sneak attack damage any more so putting some reasonable restrictions doesn't really hurt them all that much.

It sounds like it's uncertain if the hider can time his exit to gain an advantage. I'd handle that by asking for an ability check.

Seriously, all of these kinds of questions are rolled up in the basic play dynamic: player states action, DM determines if it's successful, fails, or is uncertain. If uncertain, an ability check is used. The DM then narrates the results. The question of "can the hidden rogue surprise rge monster and gain advantage for being an unseen attacker?" is exactly this. As DM, you determine if this succeeds, fails, or is uncertain and call for a check. I, personally, say it's uncertain and call for a check. If the rogue keeps using the same spot for the attempt, it's harder and the rogue has disadvantage on the check. If there's something on the other side that warrants an advantage, they get that. Just like a regular ability check

You don't have to solve hiw tge rogue does the hiding, you just throw it on the "uncertain" bin and call for a check. Let the dice decide.

Tobold · Aug 20, 2018

Well if the rogue shoots around the same corner every round, I would at the very least give the monster advantage on the perception check to spot him.

And honestly I don' t believe that this is how the rogue is meant to be designed. Throughout most editions a rogue was somebody who stabbed monsters in the back with a dagger. In 5e I see most rogues going archer, which I don't think is the way it is meant to be.

Oofta · Aug 20, 2018

Dausuul said:
It's not that you pop out when you know the enemy is distracted; it's that you pop in when they're distracted, allowing you to "go off the grid" more efficiently than other PCs.

I'll freely admit that I am trying to make the "hide and snipe" tactic work as reliably as possible for rogues, even if it means slightly contorting the fiction. This is because:

I want to encourage the use of terrain in combat.

I feel that this is how rogues are intended to work.

The DM's time and attention in combat are a very limited resource, so I'd rather have hard-and-fast rules that the player can handle independently.

Poe-tay-toe poe-tah-toe. The rogue that cannot see the enemy (because they're around a corner) cannot logically know when to leave cover to shoot.

On the other hand, if the fight is happening on a loading dock and there are stacks of crates to hide behind and the rogue can move around always attacking from different directions and angles then I'll normally allow it. But the scene has to make sense for the encounter and there has to be terrain that supports the tactic.

But if this is going to evolve (devolve?) into a discussion of stealth it should be a different thread.

Oofta · Aug 20, 2018

Tobold said:
Well if the rogue shoots around the same corner every round, I would at the very least give the monster advantage on the perception check to spot him.

And honestly I don' t believe that this is how the rogue is meant to be designed. Throughout most editions a rogue was somebody who stabbed monsters in the back with a dagger. In 5e I see most rogues going archer, which I don't think is the way it is meant to be.

That's an interesting point. I don't remember when it changed from "Back stab" to "Sneak attack". There's really no reason I can think of to not do ranged in 5E.

I have a bit of a pet peeve when everyone at the table wants to be ranged so I sympathize with the OP.

rgoodbb · Aug 20, 2018

It has taken me so much of my time to find really good players and sift out the stupid-self centred-Murder Hobo-Chaotic Ridiculous...…….................................….Sorry...I of course mean Alternative playstyles to mine.

I even had a DM a few years back end all his E-mails to the players "From your Benevolent God-King" And he meant it! What a dick!

I don't have time for that kind of rubbish any more. Back then I had to, because it was the only way to get a game, but no more.

If it doesn't feel right and folks are not playing a co-operative game, then grab the good ones, ditch the bad ones and start afresh. Take it from me, life's far too short for being stuck in bad gaming experiences. (Rant over for now)

smbakeresq · Aug 20, 2018

Tobold said:
Well if the rogue shoots around the same corner every round, I would at the very least give the monster advantage on the perception check to spot him.

And honestly I don' t believe that this is how the rogue is meant to be designed. Throughout most editions a rogue was somebody who stabbed monsters in the back with a dagger. In 5e I see most rogues going archer, which I don't think is the way it is meant to be.

It isn’t, and since you can get the bonus damage once per TURN if your target has an enemy next to it you miss out if ranged. So with proper positioning you can get it on an opportunity attack granted by your cleric or Paladin commanding the enemy to flee or the bard using dissonant whispers or some fear affect forcing them to flee or on undead being forced to move away or on the bonus action attack from 2 weapon fighting. It also works on just a regular opportunity attack. That ally can be a PC, a familiar, a summons, or even your enemy if it’s an enemy of target also.

You are part of a team, and if your team isn’t exploiting your sneak attack on their turns it’s their fault. You need to remind them. Battle master grant attack ability works also.

Swashbuckler gets even an easier trigger, and all rogues benefit from Mobile feat, you can really get away then: move away from targets you attack and then use cunning action to hide. If the enemy chases you then he draws opportunity attacks from your friends.

Rogues today all play if they have 1 HP. If your rogue wants to stay at range all the time start enforcing cover rule as they shoot past creatures. Ranged rogues are missing out on many chances to use that sneak attack bonus damage.