D&D 5E Mitigating players spamming Help, Guidance, Bardic Inspiration, and oh I’ll roll too?

staticdrifter · Sep 21, 2018

Rya.Reisender said:
Yeah, I actually agree to that.

If it prevents disadvantage it's not by the Help Action rule, but due to DM determining advantage/disadvantage rules, though.

That was but a single example. The whole point is that to eliminate players wasting time at table, a DM must be ready to work the table.

I thought we were talking actual D&D here.

The rules don't always apply. If you must be a stickler to the rules, go play monopoly or chess, D&D was NEVER about strict adherence to rules, rather rulings made by the DM.

From its inception the "rules" have been guidelines for interactive, imaginative role playing. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what RPG stands for anymore.

The idea of "Hardcore Rules Play" was a house rule (now days called homebrew) until Hasbro and Wizards started collaborating. When the Paizo group broke off to continue actual D&D, the copyright holders turned it into a kid's game.

To play D&D is to ignore the kiddie pool and get your hair wet. Jump in right after lunch, and continue to play through even after the cramps have passed. Explore the deep end and don't come up until the very last molecule of oxygen has headed for the surface in a pathetic little bubble.

Or, play modified Magic: The Gathering, with exacting rules and no imagination with the rest of the kids, because that's what copyright D&D has become and that method of D&D requires NO DM whatsoever. That is just a meaningless holdover position with even less necessity and respect than Parker Bros Banker.

Reynard · Sep 21, 2018

staticdrifter said:
That was but a single example. The whole point is that to eliminate players wasting time at table, a DM must be ready to work the table.

I thought we were talking actual D&D here.

The rules don't always apply. If you must be a stickler to the rules, go play monopoly or chess, D&D was NEVER about strict adherence to rules, rather rulings made by the DM.

From its inception the "rules" have been guidelines for interactive, imaginative role playing. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what RPG stands for anymore.

The idea of "Hardcore Rules Play" was a house rule (now days called homebrew) until Hasbro and Wizards started collaborating. When the Paizo group broke off to continue actual D&D, the copyright holders turned it into a kid's game.

To play D&D is to ignore the kiddie pool and get your hair wet. Jump in right after lunch, and continue to play through even after the cramps have passed. Explore the deep end and don't come up until the very last molecule of oxygen has headed for the surface in a pathetic little bubble.

Or, play modified Magic: The Gathering, with exacting rules and no imagination with the rest of the kids, because that's what copyright D&D has become and that method of D&D requires NO DM whatsoever. That is just a meaningless holdover position with even less necessity and respect than Parker Bros Banker.

Finally! Someone has come along to explain exactly what the correct way to play D&D is. Thank goodness. I have been floundering about all these 35 years having all this wrong headed fun, just hoping I could be set straight.

Umbran · Sep 22, 2018

staticdrifter said:
I thought we were talking actual D&D here.

Rhetorical question - Who died and made you the Speaker of the One True Way?

... exacting rules and no imagination with the rest of the kids, because that's what copyright D&D has become and that method of D&D requires NO DM whatsoever.

I am pretty sure the 5e ruleset cannot be called "exacting rules and no imagination". Rather the opposite, really.

But, neither here nor there - while critique is healthy, being degrading and insulting isn't. There is no superiority to be won in this - it is all pretending to be elves, dude, and doing it with lots of stringent numbers or not isn't a major difference, morally speaking. So, let us bring the rhetoric down a couple notches, please.

S'mon · Sep 22, 2018

ad_hoc said:
7) Why is the Hobgoblin not attacking the Familiar there?

I have no idea, mine certainly do. With the result that Familiars are rarely used to Help in combat. Problem solved.

S'mon · Sep 22, 2018

staticdrifter said:
Y
Looking back to my original example, a cleric holding a torch while a rogue picks a lock (clearly a two-handed job) definitely falls under part two. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that holding a torch to provide added, and needed, illumination is counterproductive to opening a lock?

It would cancel Disadvantage the Rogue would suffer for lack of illumination. It wouldn't give Advantage since adequate illumination is the default expectation. I don't give Rogues advantage for picking a lock in broad daylight, aided by the kindly Sun.

staticdrifter · Sep 23, 2018

S'mon said:
It would cancel Disadvantage the Rogue would suffer for lack of illumination. It wouldn't give Advantage since adequate illumination is the default expectation. I don't give Rogues advantage for picking a lock in broad daylight, aided by the kindly Sun.

And canceling Disadvantage is anywhere from +0 to +19, avg +10, more likely +5.
That's still more lenient than giving the +2 I suggested, and of course, the rogue would not require such aid in daylight or other adequate illumination.
I think people are fixating on the singular example I gave to destroy the entire idea of a DM having a say in adjudicating a situation.

I won't reply again in this thread because I have been given an infraction by the last guy who gave me a smart-assed sarcastic response.

This will probably get me banned and end up negating my Patreon support.

doctorbadwolf · Sep 23, 2018

I wouldn’t restrict Help to the helper having to be proficient. Just require that they have something relevant to the situation.

As for bardic inspiration, the rules don’t require any specifics for a reason. If you want them to roleplay their abilities more, I’d start by telling them that, and letting them know that you’re going to require descriptions from them when they use abilities.

When they try to pile on, just make it a group check, or ignore all subsequent checks after the one you asked for.

There is also great advice online about running skill challenges in 5e, if you want to reward their desire to be engaged with these situations.

S'mon · Sep 23, 2018

staticdrifter said:
I think people are fixating on the singular example I gave to destroy the entire idea of a
DM having a say in adjudicating a situation.

I am very much in favour of the DM adjudicating the situation, pretty much always. I would say the DM needs to be mindful of core class competencies in their adjudication and should try to
avoid "No you can't Sneak Attack the ooze, that's not realistic" - applying realism to the Rogue while the Wizard is shooting fire from his fingertips. But 5e skills are generally not really defined
(partial exception for Stealth in combat, also Athletics in combat) and thus require a lot
of adjudication.

Greenstone.Walker · Sep 24, 2018

Quickleaf said:
My group seems to lean too much on Help, Guidance, Bardic Inspiration, and “a roll? oh, well I’ll just roll too!” Its exasperating, and I’m searching for how I can nip it in the bud.

Reasonability
Sometimes you can stop issues like this by just looking at how reasonable the attempt is. It is entirely fair to say that characters can work together to smash a door down or to search a room. It is also entirely fair to say that they can't do the same when trying to convince the butler to let them see the Count. In such a case, having everyone talk at once is probably going to hinder their efforts.

Allowing the guidance cantrip or bardic inspiration help someone break down a door is also extremely reasonable (it is, after all, the point of the features).

Cost
Make multiple attempts have a cost. Time, money, limited resources, something like that.

For example, each attempt at picking the lock takes a couple of minutes and a wandering monsters roll.

For example, each attempt at persuading the guard to let you in has an increasingly bad consequence for failure. "Look, I've told you three times, I'm not letting you in. Ask me again and I'll throw you in a cell!"

Corollary: No cost?
On the other hand, if there is no cost or time pressure or other consequences then you shouldn't be rolling any dice. Just say, "You succeed."

Prerequisite Skill
Don't allow Bêlit to help Conan pick a lock unless Bêlit has proficiency in thief's tools.

Logistics
Don't allow Bêlit to help Conan pick a lock if the passage is so small that two people can't physically fit.

JacktheRabbit · Sep 24, 2018

Just to address one portion of this.

If someone is "aiding" another to give them advantage on their check then that person will also be subject to the consequences if the person fails the check.

Aiding the rogue while he disarms the trap? Guess what if he fails then you both are hit by the puff of poison gas. "Aiding" someone trying to persuade the crime boss? Sure, if the speaker fails then maybe the crime boss gets equally angry with you both and you both now feel his wrath.

Add some consequences and people think twice about mindlessly helping out.