D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
This would require me to have the 5e skill list memorised*. :p

*Too many editions of D&D, too many renamed skills, brain too old. I'm always going "Make a Bluff check... uh, Deception."

I'm pretty lenient on what skill is appropriate for a "do I know this?" check - here I'd allow Religion or History at least.

One thing I do is just ask for the ability check and the player applies whatever skill proficiency he or she thinks appropriate to the approach that was attempted. The rules say it's appropriate for the player to ask if a skill proficiency applies but I prefer to skip that step because I expect good faith play from my players.

This method makes it a bit easier on the DM and avoids any misunderstandings as to what the player was driving at with his or her action declaration.
 

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Mercule

Adventurer
This would require me to have the 5e skill list memorised*. :p

*Too many editions of D&D, too many renamed skills, brain too old. I'm always going "Make a Bluff check... uh, Deception."

I'm pretty lenient on what skill is appropriate for a "do I know this?" check - here I'd allow Religion or History at least.
Haha, yeah. I read other rules systems and listen to podcasts (theory and mechanics, I've never understood the appeal of actual play) for a variety of games. I don't even bother, anymore. My players just roll with it when I say, "Give me a Notice check." "You mean Perception?" "Sure, that'll work." I've also gotten to a place where I realized the players often have off the wall, but very appropriate, ideas for how to use skills I wasn't even thinking about, so I'm explicit about them being able to ask to use something else, anyway.

The irony is that I actually have an extremely good head for rules and can often tell you exact page numbers for things. I just really don't care about the names of skills in games, anymore.
 

Not exactly what you're looking for, but The Kobold Guide to Worldbuilding and The Kobold Guide to Plots & Campaigns are both filled with solid advice.

I'd love a book that describes how to build a campaign (long campaign, that is) and world from scratch. Making short adventures or one-shots is pretty easy, but I've always had trouble with the long game. I usually manage to bungle through somehow, but its always by the seat of my pants, which I dislike.
 

Celebrim

Legend

:) Yes, I noticed that too late.

I'm told that I'm a pretty consistent as a DM. Which I'm happy about because that's a trait I value.

Obviously.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "railroad," which I find many in the RPG community define too broadly.

I defined it pretty exactly I think in the essay you didn't read, albeit I've never attempted to move from the Aristotelian definition I offered to a more Socratic one. But, loosely speaking, railroading is a collection of processes of play that a GM can utilize to ensure a predetermined outcome to a scenario that the GM desires. A "railroad" is a game that features those processes of play so saliently, that it becomes a defining attribute of play. One particular process of play that can be used to railroad is the "handwave" which is when the GM removes the opportunity for fortune rolls from a scene that has meaningful consequence, or removes the opportunity for choice when a meaningful proposition could be made. I think you are basically accusing me of the later, while I'm accusing you of the former. I deny however that asking for an ability check actually removes a meaningful choice, and instead protects against the GM doing the former. With your process, regardless of how perceptive the PC is, unless the player is perceptive, he is blind.

I provide the opportunity for the player to make a reasonably informed choice by describing the environment. The player describes what he or she wants to do. I adjudicate and narrate the result of that choice in accordance with the processes as put forth in the D&D 5e rules which does not necessitate (and in some cases disallows) an ability check, passive or otherwise. I would not consider that "railroading." The player could have chose otherwise and arrived at a different result.

I find it highly unlikely given your DMing preferences that you often use the loopholes you've just opened to railroad the players anywhere. But to try to explain to you what I mean by this, the fact that you can quite easily arrange using your process of play to hook the player with something like a pickpocket, is a very powerful tool for a GM to use to achieve a desired narrative. Whenever you as a DM can arrange that the outcome doesn't depend on a dice roll quite easily, such as with your undetectable pickpocket, then you have the capacity to lay down the rails you want for your story very easily. I think it should be obvious that something like a pickpocket is a very potent hook for steering scenes in the direction you would like. Consider for example how the thief is used to steer Arthur during the tournament early in the movie 'Excalibur'.

You earlier complained that if a check was called for, then the character was attempting a meaningful action of some kind which carried a consequence of failure, and you'd not been allowed as a player to dictate that action. I still disagree since for pretty much all the cases in contention you can't really specify what that action is that has been imposed or the action is trivial and involuntary (thought, hearing, sight, memory), but assuming even you are right it seems to me that your process of play allows for meaningful actions which carry a consequence of failure to happen to the PC without so much as a fortune test or any meaningful input from the player. Things just happen to them, and all your telegraphing of how they might happen - even assuming your telegraphing is clear - doesn't change that. I think on the whole your method is more meaningfully impacting player agency than mine.

As for the intention of the rules, it's been a very thought provoking conversation. I'm not convinced completely, but certainly 5e provides a much narrower mechanical resolution system than I had realized at the start of it. In particular, no skill based saving throws isn't really a big change in my process of play, but is a change in how I approach challenges. In 3e, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for say a Balance check as a 'saving throw' (that is to resist something happening to the party). In 5e, quite obviously by the rules, the intention is only to ever ask for a dexterity saving throw in the same situation - your proficiency with dexterity checks and never with the equivalent to a balance skill is the only proficiency that mechanically matters (regardless of how you fictionally position the challenge). Likewise, while there are any number of loopholes, clearly 5e never intends you to roll the dice in a "passive" ability check unless you get into a situation of opposing actions (which is one of many loopholes, since it would be easy to suggest virtually every ability check is an opposed task). I don't think you can meaningful separate "fictional positioning" from "declared action" since presumably every fictional position after the very first depends on some sort of stated action, even if just "I'm standing right here not moving."
 
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5ekyu

Hero
So, when a thief checks for traps, if the DM checks secretly on the players behalf in order to remove the metagame information of knowing what the dice roll was, then that's grounds for abandoning a game?

Similarly, if a DM secretly makes a spot check, to determine if the PC's noticed the slithering tracker upon entering a room, because the DM did not want to impart the metagame knowledge that there is something dangerous in the room and they missed it, is that also grounds for abandoning a game?

Or in other words, must this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html be a literal thing in the game world?

I certainly don't bother to use those processes consistently, but the first thing I do when running a game in pretty much any system is pass around a notepad asking players to list out their relevant passive defenses and passive perception skills - for D&D these would be their saving throws and things like spot/listen/sense motive (or perception/insight?).

RE the bold - the key for this in my games is to not accept the "only if something is there" rolling convention. make the "enter room check or not" process one that you use every room. Then a roll, secret or not, ruse or not is not necessary.

Now maybe that roll is a working together thing with one roll made with advantage or the passive equivalent.

but the same process applying each time solves the meta-gaming issues to a great degree.

You could even count one roll as "general alertness and clear view" check and use it for an area, only re-rolling when they move into another area. Then let active search checks be used for specific cases of interest.
 

Celebrim

Legend
but the same process applying each time solves the meta-gaming issues to a great degree.

You still don't resolve the problem that if the player knows the result of his own fortune test, then the player has unreasonably high confidence in the presence or absence of threat - confidence that it is not clear the PC should share. If he "rolls a 20" or whatever indicates great success with the fortune mechanic, he can proceed with unreasonably high confidence knowing that there is a low change he missed something. Conversely, if he "rolls a 1", then the player can act as with great confidence that if something was present, he probably missed it and some sort of remedy should be applied (for example, now might be a time to use a charge from a wand or cast a spell). This contrasts with the a very natural interpretation of what ignorance - a very bad perception check - should actually mean, where the PC should have unreasonably high confidence in his perceptiveness.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
One thing I do is just ask for the ability check and the player applies whatever skill proficiency he or she thinks appropriate to the approach that was attempted. The rules say it's appropriate for the player to ask if a skill proficiency applies but I prefer to skip that step because I expect good faith play from my players.

This method makes it a bit easier on the DM and avoids any misunderstandings as to what the player was driving at with his or her action declaration.

I do something similar. In 5e, remembering the 6 stats is easy enough, then I just ask:
Me: "You got a proficiency you think might apply?"
Player: "I got history and religion."
Me: "History applies."
 

guachi

Hero
Someone else commented earlier that something like "DM infringing upon player's abilities" as something that would get him to walk.

This is the only thing that caused me to walk and I'll give specific examples.

Early in 5e's days I was playing in an AL game to get familiar with the game and get back into gaming. Another player had the Shield Master ability and no one at the table, DM included, really had a clue on the timing of the shove. The DM ruled that the PC had to attack first but admitted he had no real clue. And that when the PC hit 5th level he could shove after the first of his two attacks.

So I created a Twitter account and asked Jeremy Crawford (yes, friends, that's my tweet that Crawford initially answered and then reversed) about it. The DM had a reasonable ruling at the time and went along with Crawford's tweet-answer as it was better and more definitive than anything we could come up with.

This did not cause me to leave the game. The DM did a good job and I thought I'd be happy with him as DM. However, a few weeks later we were playing the AL adventure Outlaws of the Iron Route and I was playing my Arcane Trickster. Remember, in AL play the DM can't make up houserules. If the rules are clear the DM really has no choice in the matter. The Mage Hand Legerdemain feature says that, when you cast mage hand "you can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range" in addition to the normal features of mage hand. That's clear and unambiguous. At one point in the adventure there's an owl bear in a cage and, before I could really do anything about it, he flatly told me I couldn't use mage hand to attempt to unlock the cage. He knew what the rules were, he just didn't care. I left the game.

Several years later (that is, this Spring) he was one of two DMs who was DMing Tomb of Annihilation. I was not at his table. I got lucky and the regular crew of players from level one was pretty good and the DM was a friend. One player had a monk PC and was really excited because he just made level 5 and had Stunning Strike.

"Does Stunning Strike have a size limit on the target?", I said. "Lots of abilities like shoving and grappling have size limits."
"Yeah. I think it does", he replied. "Let me check." <Flip, flip, flip> "Nope. It doesn't list a size limit."
"OMG. That's so awesome. You can stun a dinosaur. My Shield Master shove only works on large or smaller. I can't wait for you to stun a tyrannosaurus rex."

Now, bad DM was playing at our table because we didn't have enough players for two tables that night and the DM wanted to play once in a while. He overhears our excitement and loudly proclaims, "When you're at my table you won't be able to do that. It's cheesy."

Other player refuses to play with the DM at his table the next week. DM ends up losing his DMing position because not enough people wanted to play at his table.

This was the same DM who, in the very game he told off the monk's player, was playing a ranger who used the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter feat while throwing javelins.
 

guachi

Hero
But on the other hand, you've laid down an ultimatum regarding your minimum standards of play, that as best as I can guess would drive every single player I've had in 30 years of gaming from my table.

Since people have played, play, and likely will continue to play at iserith's tables but would be driven from yours (all of them!) perhaps that's an indication that iserith is a far better DM than you are and you could learn something from him. I know I have learned things in how I approach DMing 5e because, at the end of the day, he references the text of the rule books to support his approach to DMing 5e (as opposed to running just any version of D&D)
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Since people have played, play, and likely will continue to play at iserith's tables but would be driven from yours (all of them!) perhaps that's an indication that iserith is a far better DM than you are and you could learn something from him.

Maybe so.

But as a show of hands, how many players here are comfortable with a DM that privileges a process of play that allows him to deny you fortune tests when he wants to mess with your character?

One thing that in my experience players don't like is a feeling that they were being treated unfairly. How many players have you had who would be ok in the long term with ideas like, "You don't even get a resisted check to oppose the pickpocket because you didn't say the magic words I wanted to hear?" I can't think of any.
 

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