Shillelagh - Why no scaling?

Paul Farquhar · Sep 24, 2018

Li Shenron said:
A Druid does not have Extra Attacks. I don't believe this spell is designed for multiclass characters.

If it was only available to single-class druids, and druids where banned from taking the Pole Arm Master feet, that would be fair comment.

But it's pretty easy (and common) for classes which do gain extra attacks to pick up, even without a dip into druid. Magic Adept feat being the most obvious.

And you don't even need to gain extra attacks - as already mentioned, stacking it with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade produces a similar effect. If you want to play a single class druid who fights with a Shillelagh after level 5 you might pick up one or both of those via Magic Adept or Spell Sniper.

S'mon · Sep 24, 2018

If you don't use Feats or Multiclassing I think it would be fine to rewrite the spell with scaling. Or make it a feature for some Druid Circles that they get to scale it.

Edit: Really, looking at the spell, it seems like a quick way to ensure the Druid can make magic weapon attacks. Making the weapon's die a d8 doesn't increase 2-handed quarterstaff damage
and polearm master feat bonus attack does not use the polearm's weapon damage die.

I think it would be fine to increase the damage die to d10 at Druid (Circle of the Land) 5th, d12 at Druid 11th,
and d20 at Druid 17th.

Paul Farquhar · Sep 24, 2018

S'mon said:
If you don't use Feats or Multiclassing I think it would be fine to rewrite the spell with scaling. Or make it a feature for some Druid Circles that they get to scale it.

Even if you banned feats and multiclassing if you altered the base spell it could still be acquired and exploited by valor bards and warlocks.

Having it a feature of a druid circle might work.

A better option might be to design a Druid cantrip similar to BB/GFB, or grant those cantrips as a circle feature.

Li Shenron · Sep 24, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
If it was only available to single-class druids, and druids where banned from taking the Pole Arm Master feet, that would be fair comment.

But it's pretty easy (and common) for classes which do gain extra attacks to pick up, even without a dip into druid. Magic Adept feat being the most obvious.

No, it is not common. Like, at all.

Most players of a martial class do not dip into magic abilities. Those who do, they either look for boosts on their own attacks or for complementary abilities (some tricks their characters could otherwise not be able to do). But to a martial class character that already has martial weapon proficiency and likely doesn't have higher Wisdom than Strength, the Shillelagh doesn't offer any other boost than the weapon counting as magical, which can help in low-level or low-magic campaigns, but scaling-damage cantrips still do better.

The only non-Druid character who can really benefit from Shillelagh is the Monk.

Paul Farquhar · Sep 24, 2018

Speek for your own games. In my experience, it's common.

Clerics, Rangers, Monks.

With dip into Tomelock, Paladins.

And it's a no-brainer for Valor bards.

(and with UA, dip into Giant Soul Sorcerer)

OC, if the damage scaled, it would pretty quickly outstrip GWF, and everyone would be making wisdom-fighters.

Zardnaar · Sep 24, 2018

Physical attacks scale in most classes. Clerics get an extra d8 at level 8, warrior types get multiple attacks and rogues get sneak attack.

Things like nature clerics also exist and are one of the best beatdown clerics due to shillagh.

We have an arcane cleric level 5 using it with green flame blade and spiritual guardians dealing fighter level damage.

5ekyu · Sep 24, 2018

Li Shenron said:
A Druid does not have Extra Attacks. I don't believe this spell is designed for multiclass characters.

But multiclass characters are considered in balancing things.

But its pretty straightforward... If the cantrip effect is "per action", it tends to scale. If cantrip applies effect to all attacks over time, turning its benefit into "per attack", it doesnt scale.

Umbran · Sep 24, 2018

Li Shenron said:
A Druid does not have Extra Attacks. I don't believe this spell is designed for multiclass characters.

I think the limitation of scaling indicates clearly that it *is* designed with multiclassing in mind.

The basic point is that the other damaging cantrips are themselves attack actions. This one *enhances* attack actions, rather than being one.

TwoSix · Sep 24, 2018

If you have shillelagh scale like other cantrips, than you have a whole list of possible interactions that might become problematic if they gain access to it.

If you leave shillelagh alone, you have one underperforming cantrip for one class.

I think the route you go is kind of obvious.

If you absolutely must have shillelagh scale, make it an action that performs a melee spell attack.