The Lodestar: Basic Class Information

TwoSix · Sep 24, 2018

Still doing some analysis. I have some concerns about it being underpowered for a martial class, I need to look at the interaction of some of the mid-level abilities to see if there are some synergies I'm missing.

Aoirorentsu · Sep 24, 2018

There desperately needs to be an Anonymous Op-Ed themed subclass for this class....

Ganymede81 · Sep 24, 2018

If you multiclass into Warlock, your otherworldly patron can be Mother.

BookBarbarian · Sep 24, 2018

I misread this at first:

View attachment 101766

Mike Myler · Sep 24, 2018

TwoSix said:
Still doing some analysis. I have some concerns about it being underpowered for a martial class, I need to look at the interaction of some of the mid-level abilities to see if there are some synergies I'm missing.

Keen to see what your take is! By my measure it was a little under-powered compared to monk which was kind of the goal development-wise (because it gets to do stuff at range which is itself a solid advantage). Overall though I really like the class and it instantly made Andrew stand out as a designer--it's a straight-up original fantasy concept and those are harder to come by the longer I'm in this industry.

TwoSix · Sep 24, 2018

Mike Myler said:
Keen to see what your take is! By my measure it was a little under-powered compared to monk which was kind of the goal development-wise (because it gets to do stuff at range which is itself a solid advantage). Overall though I really like the class and it instantly made Andrew stand out as a designer--it's a straight-up original fantasy concept and those are harder to come by the longer I'm in this industry.

Yea, one of the first things I'm planning on looking at is if Orbital Slingshot interacts with the bonus action attack from Monk Martial Arts. Monk 1 seems like a straightforward dip for this class, especially considering that the two classes are thematically coherent.

I'm a little bummed the class is heavy with reaction abilities, Lodestone Ricochet is a good mechanic to boost overall damage, but it's competing with Harrier's Orbit and Lodestone Shielding (both very valuable defensive abilities) to do so. I think I would be happier with Harrier's Orbit if it just happened automatically after a lodestone attack, no action required. (But keep a bonus action to withdraw.) The 3 lodestone limit keeps the ability in check, already, and 1d4+Wis damage +disadvantage on attacks is only slightly better than the bard's vicious mockery cantrip.

The subclass is a little on the weak side, also. The 3rd level ability is essentially mage hand. The 6th level ability is a portion of Sharpshooter, which I imagine would be a priority feat for Lodestars in a feat-enabled game. The 10' lodestone buzzsaws at level 9 are thematic and interesting tactically, but the heretofore never required Intelligence dependency is odd. Considering how the class has so many abilities restricted by lodestones in orbit, the extra restriction in rounds seems unnecessary. (Adding a general constraint that if you travel more than, say, 300' from a lodestone it travels back to you, or disintegrates would make sense.)

The 13th level ability seems to be T*****'s Floating Disk (edited for OGL compliance

), but with another restriction on usage. Floating Disk is already a ritual, limiting this to a tertiary stat Mod uses per long rest seems cruel at 13th level. Vital Impact at 15th is fine, although another Int dependency is there.

Personally, I have no problem with the subclasses using a new stat (Int certainly fits the thematics of the subclass), but ideally the subclass would be at 1st level if it's going to make a big impact on stat priority. The class already has a mediocre hit die, no built in defensive advantages at low level (other than shield 3-5 time a day, which isn't nothing, I admit), and has to prioritize a mental stat for attacks. It's already straining to get up Wisdom, Dexterity (for AC), and a decent Con, putting in a 4th stat priority is just too painful. Giving a subclass specific bonus to defense based on the subclass stat (I assume it's going to be a different stat for Imaginative and Instinctual) would be appreciated here, I think, so the class can afford to give tertiary consideration to Dexterity.

Zardnaar · Sep 24, 2018

TwoSix said:
Yea, one of the first things I'm planning on looking at is if Orbital Slingshot interacts with the bonus action attack from Monk Martial Arts. Monk 1 seems like a straightforward dip for this class, especially considering that the two classes are thematically coherent.

I'm a little bummed the class is heavy with reaction abilities, Lodestone Ricochet is a good mechanic to boost overall damage, but it's competing with Harrier's Orbit and Lodestone Shielding (both very valuable defensive abilities) to do so. I think I would be happier with Harrier's Orbit if it just happened automatically after a lodestone attack, no action required. (But keep a bonus action to withdraw.) The 3 lodestone limit keeps the ability in check, already, and 1d4+Wis damage +disadvantage on attacks is only slightly better than the bard's vicious mockery cantrip.

The subclass is a little on the weak side, also. The 3rd level ability is essentially mage hand. The 6th level ability is a portion of Sharpshooter, which I imagine would be a priority feat for Lodestars in a feat-enabled game. The 10' lodestone buzzsaws at level 9 are thematic and interesting tactically, but the heretofore never required Intelligence dependency is odd. Considering how the class has so many abilities restricted by lodestones in orbit, the extra restriction in rounds seems unnecessary. (Adding a general constraint that if you travel more than, say, 300' from a lodestone it travels back to you, or disintegrates would make sense.)

The 13th level ability seems to be T*****'s Floating Disk (edited for OGL compliance ), but with another restriction on usage. Floating Disk is already a ritual, limiting this to a tertiary stat Mod uses per long rest seems cruel at 13th level. Vital Impact at 15th is fine, although another Int dependency is there.

Personally, I have no problem with the subclasses using a new stat (Int certainly fits the thematics of the subclass), but ideally the subclass would be at 1st level if it's going to make a big impact on stat priority. The class already has a mediocre hit die, no built in defensive advantages at low level (other than shield 3-5 time a day, which isn't nothing, I admit), and has to prioritize a mental stat for attacks. It's already straining to get up Wisdom, Dexterity (for AC), and a decent Con, putting in a 4th stat priority is just too painful. Giving a subclass specific bonus to defense based on the subclass stat (I assume it's going to be a different stat for Imaginative and Instinctual) would be appreciated here, I think, so the class can afford to give tertiary consideration to Dexterity.

Any class that requires 4 decent stats is probably gonna struggle unless you use rolled stats and get some decent scores.

Even WotC realised this when they made the Hexblade as the Bladelock was a bit weak IMHO requiring con, charisma, dex and potentially strength as well.

This is 3 weak EN5ider classes lately? I'm testing a Gemini and it looked decent but at level 5 its starting to become underwhelming but it gets a reaction ability at level 7 which might save the class. Most of the Touch of Class classes were also underpowered with maybe 2/7 being playable.

Anyone else test this stuff? I have seen 3 EN5ider classes in play (at lower levels). and all of them were weak to situationally OK with maybe 2 being situational OP (Morph, one of the Nobles in the right party).

TwoSix · Sep 24, 2018

Zardnaar said:
Any class that requires 4 decent stats is probably gonna struggle unless you use rolled stats and get some decent scores.

I wouldn't say requires, since the first feature that uses Intelligence doesn't come online till level 9, but I was still surprised to see it.

Zardnaar said:
Even WotC realised this when they made the Hexblade as the Bladelock was a bit weak IMHO requiring con, charisma, dex and potentially strength as well.

Yep. Hexblade Bladelock is great, other bladelocks not so much.

Zardnaar said:
This is 3 weak EN5ider classes lately? I'm testing a Gemini and it looked decent but at level 5 its starting to become underwhelming but it gets a reaction ability at level 7 which might save the class. Most of the Touch of Class classes were also underpowered with maybe 2/7 being playable.

Anyone else test this stuff? I have seen 3 EN5ider classes in play (at lower levels). and all of them were weak to situation ally OK with maybe 2 being institutionally OP (Morph, one of the Nobles in the right party).

I don't quite agree, I think the Cardcaster and the Feywalker are definitely worthwhile. Diabolist I'm not sure about, it's the concept I was least interested in so I didn't do much analysis. Alchemist and Occultist are definitely UP as written, though.

Gemini needs a slight boost, I think, but doesn't seem to bad as a fighter/rogue minus sneak attack plus spell likes. I'm still puzzling my way through Mahout, although pet classes are always tough to nail down. Fatebender seems pretty good.

Zardnaar · Sep 24, 2018

TwoSix said:
I wouldn't say requires, since the first feature that uses Intelligence doesn't come online till level 9, but I was still surprised to see it.

Yep. Hexblade Bladelock is great, other bladelocks not so much.

I don't quite agree, I think the Cardcaster and the Feywalker are definitely worthwhile. Diabolist I'm not sure about, it's the concept I was least interested in so I didn't do much analysis. Alchemist and Occultist are definitely UP as written, though.

Gemini needs a slight boost, I think, but doesn't seem to bad as a fighter/rogue minus sneak attack plus spell likes. I'm still puzzling my way through Mahout, although pet classes are always tough to nail down. Fatebender seems pretty good.

I couln't figure the card caster out, it seemed you can do at will normal spells from a very limited selection.

Diabolist was OP as hell at higher levels, UP at lower levels.

Just printed the Mahoot, I think i figured out how to make one work. The pet needs to deal warrior type damage, the main class needs cantrip level damage and some sort of backup if the pet dies although in that situation cantrip level damage is fine assuming they can replace the pet the next day (like a spellcaster running out of spells).

Feywalker seems the best designed (Touch of Class one anyway), noble and morph situational.

Just had a quick look at the lodestar and you can generally tell how good a class is looking at the 1st 5 levels which usually define the basic functionality of the class. This just seems to be a weaker monk, as monks get AC boosts and are less MAD. Sure you can go a bit ranged but so can a dex based whatever or the Sun Soul Monk. Bonus action attack like the Monk but not being able to use your prime attribute. Shillelagh looks good for a lodestar. Lodestar looks like a weak skirmisher compared to Monk and the Rogue, weak enough to fall into the "is this really worth playing category".

Monlks for example get some uses with simple wepaons and dex to hit with them, Rogues get some martial weapons along with their simple weapons.