A Change of Discussion

FrogReaver said:

I'm with you in a way. But what are the categories and what falls into those categories and how are they measured?

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I’m not sure exactly, but we could seek a general consensus. I listed a few that seem really obvious...DPR, Social, Stealth, Defense, and Utility. Can you think of any others? Are these five reasonable?

LordEntrails said:

What do you want them to be?

It really seems that you are trying to put definitive metrics to things that do not have distinct categories or values that can be assigned to them.

But, if it helps your or you derive enjoyment from it. Go for it! I will bow out as I feel I'm acting like a wet blanket

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I think each category has a metric of its own. Or at least a gage of some sort. Defense has AC and Saves, Social has CHA and related skills, Stealth has...well, Stealth, but also spells and abilities that enhance it. And so on.

So if we give each character a rank of 1-3 in each of the categories I mentioned, with 1 being below average, 2 average, and 3 above average...then we’ve created some kind of common metric that can be used to compare characters.

Sure, this approach assumes that each of the categories has equal importance in the game...but I think that’s fine.

Bawylie said:

Let’s make a quick comparison. Consider the 3rd level spell Fireball. It does 8d6 damage to an area at range. Assuming that spell hits three enemies, it’s 24d6 worth of damage dealt. Now consider the 3rd level spell Fly. For 10 minutes, the target gains a fly speed of 60’. And the 3rd level spell Lightning Bolt also comes in at 8d6 (or 24d6 if you hit 3 creatures with it).

So it seems to me there is a point value to 3rd level spells. A value about equal to 24d6 (on average, 84).

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I like your proposal, but I wanted to point out that fireball and lightning bolt shouldn't be taken as the 3rd level standard. They are intentionally higher damage dealers than most 3rd level spells. I think part of the reasoning was to re-enthrone those classic spells as being actually good choices again.

Sword of Spirit said:

I like your proposal, but I wanted to point out that fireball and lightning bolt shouldn't be taken as the 3rd level standard. They are intentionally higher damage dealers than most 3rd level spells. I think part of the reasoning was to re-enthrone those classic spells as being actually good choices again.

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That’s fair. I took them as examples because IMO they are the popular choice of 3rd level spells.

But even as I think about it, if you look at how the DMG builds monsters, you find that a certain DPR progression coincides with certain CR and therefore also with XP. And additional abilities like flight or invisibility also come with CR adjustments. So I suppose there is more than one avenue to determining the XP value (or DPS comparison value) to utilities.