D&D 5E Have the level ranking of 5th ed made levels 1 and 2 pointless?

S'mon

Legend
There is a problem where some archetypes radically change the way a class is played after level one. Such as Valor Bards who spend the first two levels in light armor with simple weapons or a sword at best; suddenly being able to use medium armor, shields, and all martial weapons. Or Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights being able to cast spells one day.

Yeah, I found this a problem too. When a player wanted to play a Fighter aiming for Eldritch Knight, I made him take Ritual Caster at level one so the transition had something to build from.

In-world it's a lot more plausible if the PCs just start at 3rd.
 

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There is a problem where some archetypes radically change the way a class is played after level one. Such as Valor Bards who spend the first two levels in light armor with simple weapons or a sword at best; suddenly being able to use medium armor, shields, and all martial weapons. Or Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights being able to cast spells one day.

This makes me wish they had normalized the subclasses to start out at level one, and then implement a "level 0" where only the basic class features apply, and maybe even a "level -1" where only things like your race, background, and maybe an ability related to the class you want to play in the future work.

Yeah, I found this a problem too. When a player wanted to play a Fighter aiming for Eldritch Knight, I made him take Ritual Caster at level one so the transition had something to build from.

In-world it's a lot more plausible if the PCs just start at 3rd.

Any time plausibility or realism comes up, I have to scratch my head. We're playing pretend in a world with magic and monsters. You can come up with a good reason for just about anything existing in a world when you play D&D - including the miraculous gaining of power(s) when a PC levels up. Or, better yet, just play and stop over-analyzing - forget about reasons and just roll/role with it. Am I way off base here?

Anyway, not trying to tell anyone how to play. If you and your table find it more fun, for any reason, to start at level 3 or 5 or 10, I say go for it and enjoy the ride.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Any time plausibility or realism comes up, I have to scratch my head. We're playing pretend in a world with magic and monsters. You can come up with a good reason for just about anything existing in a world when you play D&D - including the miraculous gaining of power(s) when a PC levels up. Or, better yet, just play and stop over-analyzing - forget about reasons and just roll/role with it. Am I way off base here?

Anyway, not trying to tell anyone how to play. If you and your table find it more fun, for any reason, to start at level 3 or 5 or 10, I say go for it and enjoy the ride.

I don't think you're off base, and it's a pretty common feeling among a lot of gamers--your position of "it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters, so why question realism at all?" But on the other side, it's been sort of an unspoken rule that anything not explicitly called out with why/how it breaks realism would be based on realism. We all need that baseline of expectations that is founded on our real world experiences. Otherwise that logic is a slippery slope.

For example, where does it end?

"Well, my fighter can suddenly cast magic despite nothing he or she has done in the adventure so far that had anything remotely to do with magic because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"
"Oh, my character doesn't drown, because he or she doesn't need air to breath, because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"
"I don't take any damage from that falling boulder because physics doesn't work like that, because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"

Every table bases everything going on in the game world around realism unless there is something specific that overrides it, from climate, to eating and sleeping, to gravity, to how rivers run, to biology, etc etc. It really comes down to a personal preference on where that line is drawn. So making a blanket statement that things shouldn't be questioned "..because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!" isn't the best argument, IMO, because that's how you might feel, and not other players. Subjective vs. objective.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Quick question to all the people who prefer to start at level 3 (or 5):

Is this a personal preference, where you are fine with others starting at 1st, or do you think the game is weakened (even if just as an opportunity cost) by having that option for other tables?

In other word, do you think it brings value even if not for you, or would you eliminate it for everyone if you could?
 

There is a problem where some archetypes radically change the way a class is played after level one. Such as Valor Bards who spend the first two levels in light armor with simple weapons or a sword at best; suddenly being able to use medium armor, shields, and all martial weapons. Or Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights being able to cast spells one day.

This makes me wish they had normalized the subclasses to start out at level one, and then implement a "level 0" where only the basic class features apply, and maybe even a "level -1" where only things like your race, background, and maybe an ability related to the class you want to play in the future work.

Yeah, I found this a problem too. When a player wanted to play a Fighter aiming for Eldritch Knight, I made him take Ritual Caster at level one so the transition had something to build from.

In-world it's a lot more plausible if the PCs just start at 3rd.

I don't think you're off base, and it's a pretty common feeling among a lot of gamers--your position of "it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters, so why question realism at all?" But on the other side, it's been sort of an unspoken rule that anything not explicitly called out with why/how it breaks realism would be based on realism. We all need that baseline of expectations that is founded on our real world experiences. Otherwise that logic is a slippery slope.

For example, where does it end?

"Well, my fighter can suddenly cast magic despite nothing he or she has done in the adventure so far that had anything remotely to do with magic because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"
"Oh, my character doesn't drown, because he or she doesn't need air to breath, because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"
"I don't take any damage from that falling boulder because physics doesn't work like that, because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"

Every table bases everything going on in the game world around realism unless there is something specific that overrides it, from climate, to eating and sleeping, to gravity, to how rivers run, to biology, etc etc. It really comes down to a personal preference on where that line is drawn. So making a blanket statement that things shouldn't be questioned "..because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!" isn't the best argument, IMO, because that's how you might feel, and not other players. Subjective vs. objective.

Good points. Posting that there's a problem with the Realism of the RAW is what gets me. I didn't mean to imply everyone at the table individually has carte blanche to make up anything and everything they desire just because it's a pretend world. You might as well be doing a free form improv session at that point. The D&D RAW/RAI are the framework through which we play in these pretend worlds. According to the RAW/RAI some PCs gain magic as various levels, others gain or already have the ability to breath under water, others gain immunity to boulder damage because physics reasons... wait, maybe not that last one. In any case, tweak the rules as best suits* your table to optimize the fun.

* this means the table as a whole agrees to the homebrew rule
 


Oofta

Legend
"Well, my fighter can suddenly cast magic despite nothing he or she has done in the adventure so far that had anything remotely to do with magic because it's a fantasy game with magic and monsters!"

Or ... "I've been practicing with this magic stuff off-screen and I think I finally have it figured out!"

A lot of character class progression doesn't map well to fighting monsters. Wizards are constantly honing their craft getting better, clerics get more powerful spells, fighters get new maneuvers. Some can be put down to practical experience like getting better at stabbing someone when they're distracted, but why one day can my rogue avoid all damage from a fireball when he couldn't the day before?

In a more granular system my rogue would slowly reduce damage on a save down to nothing, which could work in a video game with a skill tree but just isn't worth it for D&D.

Or between levels the PCs just undergo a training montage. :)
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Yeah, the whole "How my character suddenly do X?" thing is a universal situation that every single class in the game has, so to pick out something like Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster as the "true culprit" here is kind of silly.

The fighter wasn't casting spells during levels 1 or 2 but then suddenly did when they hit level 3? Guess what? The wizard wasn't casting 2nd level spells either until they hit level 3. In both cases, they did all their work "off-screen" to get to that point when they could. Yeah, yeah, yeah... someone'll say "Well, I'm more willing to suspend my disbelief that a spellcaster was working on new spells off-screen than I am the fighter"... but that's your issue, not the game's. It's not the game's job to sand off every single edge that makes a player go "Ew!" when it comes to suspending their disbelief.

You either accept that every single character has different abilities they are working on "off-screen" that suddenly seem to pop in out of nowhere in the middle of a game... or you let yourself be annoyed. But no one else nor the game is going to make things better for you. You're going to have to put in the extra effort to sand the edges down yourself.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Or between levels the PCs just undergo a training montage. :)

The hour's approaching, to give it your best
And you've got to reach your prime.
That’s when you need to put yourself to the test
And show us a passage of time
We're going to need a montage (montage)
Ooh it takes a montage (montage)
Show a lot of things happening at once,
Remind everyone of what’s going on (what’s going on)
And with every shot, show a little improvement
To show it all would take to long
That’s called a montage (montage)
Girl we want montage (montage)
In anything if you want to go
From just a beginner to a pro,
You need a montage (montage)
Even rocky had a montage (montage)
Always fade out in a montage, (montage)
If you fade out
It seem like more time has passed in a montage (montage)
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Level 3 is when classes become fully realized. All characters will have their subclass by level 3,
That makes it seem like 3 would be the last of the introductory levels then. However
full casters will have multiple levels of spells for the first time. It’s also the first level that isn’t specifically designed to be attained in one session or less.

That is much better evidence.

And, again, the fact that they’re tutorial levels is the explicit design intent. One could probably dig up the articles where this was discussed in the D&D Next Playtest process if one was of a mind to. Unless Wizards deleted them, which is entirely possible. Might still be able to dig them up with the waybac machine if so.

I wasn't around for the playtest, but I'm willing to take you word on it.
 

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