Ideas for Improving Inspiration

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Group does not like to use meta-pools or gimmick pools and treat failure due to character stats are normal. (My group)

This sounds like a culture thing - because it's absolutely not a gimmick or meta thing, it's part fo the core rules of 5e. It's more core that feats, multiclassing and variant humans.

It's just because it's new-to-this-edition that others see it as outside.

Group tends to stay focused in-character for solutions and does not think about player tokens. (My group)

Well, as long as they are staying in-character to look for in-character solutions, these should be flooding in since being in character is exactly what triggers them. The DM should be handing them out as everyone is playing their characters to the hilt. (Or do you have another meaning of "in-character" besides to roleplay?)

Group tends to work well and gst advantage often enough and plans to minimize "checks" in critical moments. (Various groups.).

Orthogonal to the issue - just because you don't need it doesn't mean you can't get it.

The group accepts and combines both rp heavy and tactically heavy focused players - and so do not add to the play extra rewards to the role-players. (Some groups, mine included.)

Luckily this isn't "extra" reward any more then Fate point compels are are "extra" reward in FATE. This is part of the core rules.

I do agree with the poster that suggested if inspiration was tied into class functions it would get more play and remembered more often.

An easy way would be to have each class soecify an "inspired recovery" where spending an inspiration had some defined partial rest type recovery on the fly. - specifics vary by class.

This suggestion makes everyone the same. But Inspiration is a long-outstanding mechanical support for staying in character even when what your doing isn't "the smartest". Changing ti to be a per-class-definition recharge is absolutely changing what it does. Not that I have a problem with per-class recharges for class features, like rogue's Momentum in 13th Age. But that's not what Inspiration is measuring, encouraging, nor rewarding.
 
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Guest 6801328

Guest
Then you misunderstand me and talk past me.

Perhaps the former, but certainly not the latter intentionally.

Then again, you made a reference to "dissociative mechanics", so we are probably playing two very different games, and are unlikely to agree. So maybe we'd best just leave it at that.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
This sounds like a culture thing - because it's absolutely not a gimmick or meta thing, it's part fo the core rules of 5e. It's more core that feats, multiclassing and variant humans.


Luckily this isn't "extra" reward any more then Fate point compels are are "extra" reward in FATE. This is part of the core rules.
Correction: meta has absolutely nothing to do with core.

Core is opposed to variant, optional or supplementary.

Meta rules targets the player, whereas "non meta" targets the character. It's a matter of in vs out of the fiction.

Jumping rules or ammunition count? Not meta, they govern how your character interacts with the world.

Fate points or Hero points, as some RPGs use? Meta, they offer the player a decision point to intervene in the story on his character's behalf.

Tldr Inspiration is totally a meta rule. It also happen to be a core rule, but that has nothing to do with its meta status. Whether it's a "gimmick" is up to each customer to decide.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
This is important. There are numerous means for players to gain Advantage, including through GM fiat. This sidelines the uniqueness of the benefits that Inspiration confers. If there are more reliable methods of gaining advantage than through Inspiration, especially if they fall into the realm of player-agency, then players will favor those methods over others (i.e., Inspiration).
True.

I'm maybe looking at this from the other side of the coin, where Inspiration short-circuits the regular mini-game of Advantage, but true nonetheless.

The solution, of course, is to divorce Inspiration from Advantage :)
 


CapnZapp

Legend
In the past, I've used a tiny d6 to represent inspiration, and changed the rules so that instead of advantage, you just get +1d6 to a roll. This is MUCH more powerful as it can increase your potential total upside, and in some cases guarantee success. Advantage/reroll is not very useful when your odds of success are already super low, but with +1d6, and the ability to spend multiple +1d6 on a single roll, you can make sure you succeed at important rolls, which I like. Also, I would hand out actual tiny dice to people when they earned inspiration, which was fun for everyone.
I use just a straight-up +5, but yes, we're on the same page.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Perhaps the former, but certainly not the latter intentionally.

Then again, you made a reference to "dissociative mechanics", so we are probably playing two very different games, and are unlikely to agree. So maybe we'd best just leave it at that.
It was an error on my part to use terminology that loaded. Angry DM talks about this is in his own article complaining about Inspiration. There is not really a mechanical or in-fiction connection between how one earns and spends Inspiration.

In contrast, in Fate a PC gains fate points (FPs) through two means: Refresh and Compels. Refresh is the amount re-gained at the start of every session. With compels, the GM (rarely other players) offer the player a FP to accept a narrative complication based on the PC's Trouble aspect, though possibly also other aspects. But on the other side of things, the player can only spend those FPs on things that pertain directly to their character Aspects. In order to spend a FP (to reroll, gain a +2 bonus to the roll made, declare a story detail), the player must invoke one of their Aspects in a manner that is relevant to the fiction. Now in Fate, your Aspects are the bulk of your character. They describe who you are as a person. So this is a forefront element, and the FP economy of aspect invokes/compels makes it a central part of playing a character. In contrast, the player is spending Inspiration on whatever. Just a random roll without any connection to the Bonds/Flaw/Ideal system (or whim of the DM) that garnered that Inspiration.

Fate Points are regarded as dissociative mechanics in how spending them comes from a player decision. However, the means that they are gained and spent all connect closely with reinforcing the character concept in-narrative as expressed in the Aspects/Trouble.

I think they kinda try replicating this idea through the Personality Traits of Inspiration, but it falls a bit flat IMO. And this dissonance is fairly clear from the flavor text and the mechanics:
By using inspiration, you can draw on your personality trait of compassion for the downtrodden to give you an edge in negotiating with the Beggar Prince. Or inspiration can let you call on your bond to the defense of your home village to push past the effect of a spell that has been laid on you.
Here, there is the idea that Inspiration will be spent in a way in-fiction that is congruent with the character's associated personality trait. Okay, neat. The reality? Not so much:
If you have inspiration, you can expend it when you make an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check. Spending your inspiration gives you advantage on that roll.
And this cognitive dissonance is where it ultimately falls flat for me. It ain't got no soul in how it works.

Yes, Inspiration is a rule for the player as much as the character.

It's a meta rule.
Thing is, I love Fate, and I don't mind meta-mechanics as a general principle. But the implementation of Inspiration feels somewhat cumbersome and half-hearted.
 

5ekyu

Hero
This sounds like a culture thing - because it's absolutely not a gimmick or meta thing, it's part fo the core rules of 5e. It's more core that feats, multiclassing and variant humans.

It's just because it's new-to-this-edition that others see it as outside.



Well, as long as they are staying in-character to look for in-character solutions, these should be flooding in since being in character is exactly what triggers them. The DM should be handing them out as everyone is playing their characters to the hilt. (Or do you have another meaning of "in-character" besides to roleplay?)



Orthogonal to the issue - just because you don't need it doesn't mean you can't get it.



Luckily this isn't "extra" reward any more then Fate point compels are are "extra" reward in FATE. This is part of the core rules.



This suggestion makes everyone the same. But Inspiration is a long-outstanding mechanical support for staying in character even when what your doing isn't "the smartest". Changing ti to be a per-class-definition recharge is absolutely changing what it does. Not that I have a problem with per-class recharges for class features, like rogue's Momentum in 13th Age. But that's not what Inspiration is measuring, encouraging, nor rewarding.
So, you dont see getting advantage in this fight here by using a token the player gained that has no actual physical manifestation in the game world for doing a good performance in the bar the night before a "meta" thing? Ok, well we disagree.

I call them gimmick because they have dozen or more different names in each system which provides thrm - fate, drama, plot, story, hero, action, shineys, etc etc etc and gimmick points just saves time. They were not new - they have been around a long long time.

The **use** of them is to spend the point as a player and gain advantage- no "in character" requirement to use them, which means they are divorced from the character at time of use. "Goid dance last night" allows "advantage on initiative today."
Maybe yo you that's "in character" but it's not the style of play we like.

We also see role playing as expected, not carrot seeking. Its fine for gun and some go whole hog over it and others with different preferences not as much - we dont need to reward one of them.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Correction: meta has absolutely nothing to do with core.

Core is opposed to variant, optional or supplementary.

Meta rules targets the player, whereas "non meta" targets the character. It's a matter of in vs out of the fiction.

Jumping rules or ammunition count? Not meta, they govern how your character interacts with the world.

Fate points or Hero points, as some RPGs use? Meta, they offer the player a decision point to intervene in the story on his character's behalf.

Tldr Inspiration is totally a meta rule. It also happen to be a core rule, but that has nothing to do with its meta status. Whether it's a "gimmick" is up to each customer to decide.
Yup, you get it.

Their attempt to swerve the context was transparent.
 

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