Ranger Beast Master: errata will add new features to your animal companion!

doctorbadwolf said:

Yes, it does make a world of difference. IMO, that difference would be negative, not positive.

You aren’t being asked to do anything. The game has some (too few IMO) epic scenarios wherein only people with proficiency and/or an ability bonus will make a specific save.

The other way to get the desired result would be to have an extra rule in the stat block that says “you automatically fail this save if your save bonus is lower than X.”, which would be a less elegant way of doing it.

The idea of always succeeding on a nat 20 is bad as well, IMO, as is “your save is never worse than prof bonus”. Especially the second one. It’s good that every character has saves that they actively suck at making.

I also definately don’t think there should always be a 1 in 20 chance of success on a save. It’s a fine house rule for groups who like it, but I’m glad it isn’t a core rule.

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When you say "It’s good that every character has saves that they actively suck at making" that sounds as if I am arguing the opposite. I am not.

You do suck at a save you only make if you roll 17 or better, so it's not like I'm saying characters should never have sucky saves.

What argument do you have for the "difference" to be negative? How can fixing the rules so you never have to make impossible saves be bad? Why do you fight for autofail-saves in the first place? There were never any good reason to introduce them, never mind keeping them.

Mistwell said:

My favorite encounter so far in D&D 5e was us going up against a black dragon in it's lair who was clearly more powerful than our party. Our only advantage was we knew it was there in advance, and roughly where it was. But we badly needed to scout the lair more, and the Dragon, before going in prepared.

Sneaking past it without heavy magical enhancement would have been impossible. Its perception, in it's lair, and with the senses it has, were just too high for any stealth roll to suceed without magic.

So we cast Enhance Ability: Cat's Grace on the Druid (Advantage on Dex Checks). And Pass Without Trace (+10 to Dex (Stealth) checks and leaves no tracks). And gave the Druid Bardic Inspiration (add d6 to one ability check). And the Druid Shape Changed into a Giant Wolf Spider (+7 Stealth, Spider Climb). After the roll (with advantage) the impossible stealth check was impossibly good. So good the Dragon couldn't beat the Druid's roll even with a natural 20. And the Druid scouted the dragon and it's lair and helped us come up with a plan to beat it.

That was one of the most fun encounters we've had, and it involved an impossible roll baring magical enhancement.

And I genuinely think some of those spells are there for that very kind of scenario. It was very heroic. Almost every player in the party contributed something to the effort of one party member scouting out danger. We loved it.

Impossible DCs are not a huge waste of time, they're an opportunity to make some of the magic of the game shine, and to reward groups who plan and think ahead.

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CapnZapp said:

When you say "It’s good that every character has saves that they actively suck at making" that sounds as if I am arguing the opposite. I am not.

You do suck at a save you only make if you roll 17 or better, so it's not like I'm saying characters should never have sucky saves.

What argument do you have for the "difference" to be negative? How can fixing the rules so you never have to make impossible saves be bad? Why do you fight for autofail-saves in the first place? There were never any good reason to introduce them, never mind keeping them.

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You're wrong.

Going up against things which are way more powerful than you unless you prepare with magic against them is part of the game. It's always been part of the game, since the game was invented. It's a rather fun part of the game in fact. Impossible saves are there to get you to either prepare better or run away better. That's a feature, not a bug. It's not a video game where it's expected you have a chance to beat anything you stumble into. The game is intentionally not balanced around that aspect - there are things you cannot beat if you are not prepared for them in advance (which might include running away and only coming back when you're a higher level or with special magic items or spells or such).

Mistwell said:

Impossible saves are there to get you to either prepare better or run away better. That's a feature, not a bug.

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That would be a reasonable argument, if it was true, but it's not. Preparation gives very little ability to change the odds (since you'll never turn an impossible save into a probable one, the tools simply don't exist); and impossible saves are more-or-less irrelevant to the necessity of running away.

If a cosmic dragon walks up to you and hits you with a DC 45 breath weapon, then you just take it on the chin, mark down a couple of HP, and proceed to wipe the floor with it.

Saelorn said:

Preparation gives very little ability to change the odds (since you'll never turn an impossible save into a probable one, the tools simply don't exist); and impossible saves are more-or-less irrelevant to the necessity of running away.

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As the stealth against the dragon example earlier shows, there are a lot more tools than you might think.

But even barring that, Dnd is a game of imagination, of course there are tools. If the party is going against Grazzt, the idea is not that they "just go against Grazzt". They do research, they contain powerful allies. That's when they go....ok I want to research....is there any defense Grazzts crazy attack that Saving throw DC 23 (of course said more flavorfly in game). And then the DM says "on the Astral Plane, in area X....there is rumor of a mystic plant know as Urroot, which combined with the tears of a pixie, may make a potion that could temparily assist against the effect.

And of the players go on a grand adventure. That's Mistwell's point....the fun of beating the "impossible bad", is not just in the fight....but in the adventures and prep leading up it.


I will use my last campaign as an example. The entire campaign was for the party to beat Asmodeus. Could they have beaten him outright? Hell no! They had to go through several full length adventures to get the ingredients, research the perfect time to strike, arrange a massive invasion to distract his army long enough, conduct a ritual that killed 150 druids and their favored mentor in order to bind Asmoedeus to his castle so he couldn't just leave....etc etc. And it was still a hell of a fight, and there still were saves they could not save against. So....they focused on ways to deal with the after effects as quickly as possible. And it worked, and they were victorious.

Stalker0 said:

I will use my last campaign as an example. The entire campaign was for the party to beat Asmodeus. Could they have beaten him outright? Hell no! They had to go through several full length adventures to get the ingredients, research the perfect time to strike, arrange a massive invasion to distract his army long enough, conduct a ritual that killed 150 druids and their favored mentor in order to bind Asmoedeus to his castle so he couldn't just leave....etc etc. And it was still a hell of a fight, and there still were saves they could not save against. So....they focused on ways to deal with the after effects as quickly as possible. And it worked, and they were victorious.

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Right, but how does it help for the saving throws to be literally unmake-able, rather than being 90% or 95% unmake-able? Would you have acted any differently, in preparation or during the fight, if you'd known that it was theoretically possible for you to resist some of his abilities? Or would you still focus on ways to alleviate the effects, under the assumption that you'll probably still fail the saving throws?

Saelorn said:

That would be a reasonable argument, if it was true, but it's not. Preparation gives very little ability to change the odds (since you'll never turn an impossible save into a probable one, the tools simply don't exist); and impossible saves are more-or-less irrelevant to the necessity of running away.

If a cosmic dragon walks up to you and hits you with a DC 45 breath weapon, then you just take it on the chin, mark down a couple of HP, and proceed to wipe the floor with it.

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I disagree. The tools are there to change the odds from an impossible save into a probable one, dependant of course on how impossible the save is. Impossible saves are relevant to running away as running away lets you then prepare using the tools I am referring to.

Here are some tools (this is not an exhaustive list):
Bardic Inspiration
Bend Luck
Dark One's Own Luck
Bless
Resistance
Lucky feat
Portent
Aura of Protection
Tides of Chaos
Inspiration
Foresight
Holy Aura
Shapechange
Magic items which boost the relevant stat
Magic items which can boost more than one save like Cloak of Protection, Luck Blade (also reroll), Stone of Good Luck, Ring of Protection, Robe of Stars, Rod of Alertness - (+1 bonus)

Also: You starting out your reply with an implication I am making an unreasonable argument is probably not a good foot to start off with. I mean, there is no reason to turn the aggression dial to 11 on your first reply, is there?

Mistwell said:

I disagree. The tools are there to change the odds from an impossible save into a probable one, dependant of course on how impossible the save is. Impossible saves are relevant to running away as running away lets you then prepare using the tools I am referring to.

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If you're a level 17 fighter, and your Dex save is at -1, then you would need to find +12 worth of bonuses to turn an impossible DC 21 save into a probable one. Advantage is meaningless if you still fail on a 20, but might tip the scales if you can also find +8 worth of bonuses elsewhere. I'm not too familiar with everything on your list, but from what I do recognize, there's not much that you could acquire in preparation. You probably don't have time, between recon for the fight and when the fight actually needs to take place, to go gain three levels so you can pick up a feat. Nor are you likely to recruit a high-level bard or sorcerer, if you didn't have one already in the party.

Seriously, imagine the situation. Your party needs to take out an ancient red dragon next week, so you have time to prepare. What can you feasibly do, to get ready for its breath weapon? You might have time to go on a quick quest for a magic item, but nothing gives enough of a bonus to your saving throw for it to significantly affect the probability of saving. You're better off not even trying to make the save, and just figuring out some way to resist fire damage (which can be done with a single spell, or any one of three different magic items).

Mistwell said:

Also: You starting out your reply with an implication I am making an unreasonable argument is probably not a good foot to start off with. I mean, there is no reason to turn the aggression dial to 11 on your first reply, is there?

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Tone doesn't always come across, in these forums. I could have said that it would be a 'strong' argument, rather than a 'reasonable' one. It does follow logically from the premise; I just find the premise kind of shaky.

Saelorn said:

If you're a level 17 fighter, and your Dex save is at -1, then you would need to find +12 worth of bonuses to turn an impossible DC 21 save into a probable one. Advantage is meaningless if you still fail on a 20, but might tip the scales if you can also find +8 worth of bonuses elsewhere. I'm not too familiar with everything on your list, but from what I do recognize, there's not much that you could acquire in preparation. You probably don't have time, between recon for the fight and when the fight actually needs to take place, to go gain three levels so you can pick up a feat. Nor are you likely to recruit a high-level bard or sorcerer, if you didn't have one already in the party.

Seriously, imagine the situation. Your party needs to take out an ancient red dragon next week, so you have time to prepare. What can you feasibly do, to get ready for its breath weapon? You might have time to go on a quick quest for a magic item, but nothing gives enough of a bonus to your saving throw for it to significantly affect the probability of saving. You're better off not even trying to make the save, and just figuring out some way to resist fire damage (which can be done with a single spell, or any one of three different magic items).
Tone doesn't always come across, in these forums. I could have said that it would be a 'strong' argument, rather than a 'reasonable' one. It does follow logically from the premise; I just find the premise kind of shaky.

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OK, dex saves. Sounds good.

+5 from three-quarters cover. You can prepare to gain cover - in fact my black dragon scenario involved that as one of the primary goals of the scouting mission, to find good reachable cover.
+2.5 from Bless.
+2.5 from Resistance
+5 if you have a Paladin with you (Aura of Protection).
+1 from Cloak of Resitance (it's just uncommon)
+1 from Luckstone (it's just uncommon)
+1 from Ring of Protection (it's rare so might not have one, though a disproportionate number of official published adventures have one to be found well prior to level 17)
+5 With bardic inspiration (that's the rough equivelent of advantage). Though probably that advantage will come from something even more useful, like Haste.

There's plenty more you could get. But we're at +23 now so I think I've demonstrated you can in fact prepare. Nothing I listed is outrageous in the least - most of it is low level spells and cantrips and uncommon magic items which are a dime a dozen at level 17, along with careful preparation concerning the battleground, and likely a preparatory stealth mission to get to cover to begin (and there are tons more bonuses to be had cheap if stealth is the goal). And we have not even begun on resistance, reduction, and immunity to fire damage preparation tools.

CapnZapp said:

When you say "It’s good that every character has saves that they actively suck at making" that sounds as if I am arguing the opposite. I am not.

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I mistakenly thought I could just speak casually, without all manner of hyperspecificity.

What I meant was, the specific thing we are arguing about is good. It’s good that some characters literally cannot make the save, while other characters can, and still others have a solid chance.

What argument do you have for the "difference" to be negative? How can fixing the rules so you never have to make impossible saves be bad? Why do you fight for autofail-saves in the first place? There were never any good reason to introduce them, never mind keeping them.

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What argument do you have, other than to repeatedly state your conlcusion as if it were self evident objective truth?

what you propose wouldn’t “fix” the rules. It would make them more like what you want, but that is a different thing.

So, a couple reasons to introduce and keep situationally unbeatable save DCs, at high levels.

*it forces planning ahead, in game, to overcome. You can’t just boost all your saves with how you build the character, so most players won’t try. Good. Instead, if they study the CR 26 godling, they’ll find out that it has abilities that most mortals cannot resist (and ideally immunities and residences that most mortals could never overcome), and will have reason to research further, acquire aid and artifacts to overcome the challenge, and go in prepared. Maybe with just items and boobs that boost saves, maybe with unique campaign items/boons/whatever than lower the creature’s DC, or give a significant bonus to party saves against it, or otherwise mitigate the issue.

*It makes the fight tough, assymetrical, and harder to strategize, and thus harder to steamroll over, without necessarily making them a death trap for less capable parties. Most of these abilities aren’t going to kill anyone, they just make the fight harder. Good. The Paladin or whoever gets to walk through an effect that everyone else gets hit by, and legends claim is impossible to resist.Good!

*It makes epic threats stand out in a way that is hard to ignore. I would add such saves to BBEG creatures and campaign-climax type hazards and traps, if I were designing the game. Nothing that will create a TPK, but a trap that minorly hinders everyone who fails, or knocks everyone in different directions to keep them from using optimal strategy, that only some of them have any chance of succeeding on, is good design.

Mistwell said:

+5 from three-quarters cover. You can prepare to gain cover - in fact my black dragon scenario involved that as one of the primary goals of the scouting mission, to find good reachable cover.

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And what, you're going to ready an action to dive behind cover when you expect the dragon is going to breathe on you? If you're going to spend the whole time cowering in the background, instead of up in the dragon's face, then you might as well not show up. Remember that your Dex modifier is -1, so you're not doing anything with a bow.

+2.5 from Bless.

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It's not feasible to add new party members, as preparation. You can certainly choose for your existing divine spellcaster to cast this spell, rather than something else, but it takes their action and concentration.

+2.5 from Resistance

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As above, but in terms of action economy, the divine spellcaster in your party is probably going to cast Bless instead of Resistance.

+5 if you have a Paladin with you (Aura of Protection).

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Which is actually the point of this whole tangent. Without a paladin's aura, high-end saves become entirely unmake-able without preparation. With a paladin's aura, sufficient preparation can make saving throws make-able, though not reliably.

+1 from Cloak of Resitance (it's just uncommon)
+1 from Luckstone (it's just uncommon)
+1 from Ring of Protection (it's rare so might not have one, though a disproportionate number of official published adventures have one to be found well prior to level 17)

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Just because an item is Uncommon, does not mean it's for sale, or easily find-able. You might have time to go on a quest for one of these, if the DM is feeling amenable, but more than that is unlikely. This isn't third edition.

+5 With bardic inspiration (that's the rough equivelent of advantage). Though probably that advantage will come from something even more useful, like Haste.

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Like I said, you don't get to recruit party members in preparation for a fight. You could very well choose to have your wizard caste Haste on the fighter, though.

Summing up the feasible precautions you can take (-1 +2.5 +1 +Advantage) gets your final roll at +2.5, with Advantage. The fighter gets two tries to hit DC 21, rolling d20+d4. Even if you can convince the dragon to fight you in terrain that's full of three-quarters cover, and it somehow can't negotiate a clear firing line to get around that, a +5 bonus doesn't shift you into probable territory. You're still doing a lot of work, eating up actions and concentration for half of the party, in order to get less than an even chance of preventing 45 damage.