D&D 5E Two-weapon fighting paladin

Tobold

Explorer
As only the fighter and ranger get the two-weapon fighting style, I don’t see the option to wield two weapons discussed much for the paladin class. I would like to discuss this option.

Paladins get a series of “smite” spells, which they can cast as a bonus action. The problem with those is that the divine smite class feature is usually better, because it doesn’t use up a bonus action, and you can decide to use it after you know that you hit. The gap gets wider on a critical hit; being able to decide to add 4d8 (or more) after rolling a critical hit is just awesome.

Thus the idea to build a paladin who is wielding two weapons. At level 2 that (nearly) doubles the chance of landing a critical hit. Using spell slots exclusively for those critical hits wrings the maximum amount of damage out of them. Alternatively the two-weapon fighting can be used to use divine smite on *every* hit, there is no “once per turn” limit; that burns your spell slots very quickly, but can be useful for situations where a “nova strike” tactic is best.

Theorycrafters have shown that great weapon fighting deals more damage than two-weapon fighting for fighters after a certain level. I am not a theorycrafter, but I wonder if that is even still true for paladins, once you consider both divine smite criticals and improved divine smite. Of course it remains true that when you get a second attack at level 5, that doesn’t get you a second off-hand attack, so the impact of the second attack gets weaker. But it is still yet another chance to land a critical hit, and yet another attack on which to add the improved divine smite to.

You could theoretically push the concept of the critical hit divine smite over the top by multi-classing for example a fighter (champion) into the mix. But personally I’d be perfectly happy with a single-class paladin to try it out. As this is going to be an oath of vengeance paladin (the concept should work well with vow of enmity), I am wondering whether Hunter’s Mark would be a good idea. The pro would be that the 1d6 of Hunter’s Mark is added to every attack. The con is that it eats up one bonus action and thus one attack on the first round, and by the second round you might already have lost concentration on the spell, because concentration spells aren’t great in melee combat.

So, what do you think about the viability of a two-weapon fighting paladin? Have you ever tried it?
 

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RogueJK

It's not "Rouge"... That's makeup.
You could theoretically push the concept of the critical hit divine smite over the top by multi-classing for example a fighter (champion) into the mix.

That's the first thing I thought of partway through your post. A Champion3/PaladinX would have twice the critical range on each attack, plus TWF style to add STR to the off hand damage, plus Action Surge for occasional additional attacks. That should more than offset the delayed spell/smite progression, and delayed Extra Attack, at least for melee damage purposes.
 

Gavin O.

First Post
The question really boils down to: Do you have something else to do with your bonus action?

If not, then dual wielding shortswords or scimitars gets you the same damage dice as a greatsword (2d6 + Ability), plus you can use your Dexterity to attack and you can apply two divine smites. If you do, then the oppertunity cost of giving up that ability or spell to use your off-hand attack might not be worth it.

However, once you get extra attack the numbers start looking worse: A greatsword deals a total of 4d6 + 2 x Ability damage, while two scimitars deal a total of 3d6 + 2x ability (for a loss of 3.5 damage). Your chance to land a critical hit with three hits is about 3/20, where your chance to land one in two hits is about 2/20 (that makes a 1/20 chance that the scimitars crit and the greatsword doesn't), so assuming you have a smite available to use, the extra crit chance increases your damage by 1 20th of 1d6 + the damage of the smite you use. With a level 2 smite, that works out to 1/20 * (3.5+13.5) = 17/20, or less than 1 more DPR, not enough to compensate for the 1d6 less damage you're doing.

How about when you get improved divine smite?

At level 11, you get +1d8 damage to all of your weapon attacks. You're still making the same number of attacks per round as you did at level 5, so assuming you have you attacking stat at 20 by now, a greatsword is dealing 4d6+2d8+10 damage (average of 33), while scimitars are dealing 3d6+3d8+10, (average of 34), so disregarding the great weapon fighting style, the scimitars have caught up in damage again, plus they have a higher chance to crit.

So to summarize:
At levels 1 to 4 it can be worth it, assuming you have nothing else to use your bonus action for
Level 5 to 10 it's not worth it even if you don't have anything to use your bonus action for
Level 11 to 20 it can be worth it, again assuming you're not using your BA for anything else.

So what things would a Paladin use their bonus action for?
-Polearm Master. If you have this feat, you can use a bonus action to make an attack with the butt of your polearm, which only has 1d4 damage dice but allows you to add your strength modifier unlike dual wielding.
-Spells. On the stock paladin list, Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon, Holy Weapon, and Banishing Smite are all strong spells that only require your bonus action. Misty Step is available to Ancients and Vengeance Oaths, and the incredible Spiritual Weapon is available to Conquest. With the exception of Spiritual Weapon, none of these spells require your bonus action every round, so losing one attack to set them up isn't the worst thing in the world. If you're a level 20 oath of the ancients paladin, your transformation lets you cast all of your paladin spells as a bonus action, but that comes in super late.
-Vow of Enmity: Uses a bonus action to set up, gives you advantage against one target for a minute. Also not a deal breaker since it only takes one turn to set up and recharges on a short rest, but it's there.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
You need to pick something to use your bonus action on. Shield Master used to be a good choice, it still is if you don’t follow JC. Otherwise you need something, and if you have nothing then use Wrathful Smite.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
And if you were to go 2 weapon then Champion let’s you pick the style and get full attack bonus and Dual Wielder is then the feat you take. With that feat and the second fighting style from Paladin you can take defense and get a total defense bonus of +2.
 

Gavin O.

First Post
And if you were to go 2 weapon then Champion let’s you pick the style and get full attack bonus and Dual Wielder is then the feat you take. With that feat and the second fighting style from Paladin you can take defense and get a total defense bonus of +2.

If you were going to spend a feat on it though, why not just take Polearm Master? You lose 1 point of AC, but do more damage and get a reaction attack whenever someone enters your reach.
 


Because the OP wanted to use 2 weapons.

Eh, I still wouldn't spend a feat on Dual Wielder, though. AFAIC, the advantage of dual wielding instead of taking Polearm Master is saving an ASI/feat and putting that to better use. Like another +2 STR/DEX to reach 20 there faster, or even +2 CHA to make your Aura of Protection better, faster.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Eh, I still wouldn't spend a feat on Dual Wielder, though. AFAIC, the advantage of dual wielding instead of taking Polearm Master is saving an ASI/feat and putting that to better use. Like another +2 STR/DEX to reach 20 there faster, or even +2 CHA to make your Aura of Protection better, faster.

It’s the balance between +1 AC and +1 DMG to 2-3 weapon attacks per round vs +1 to hit/ +1 DMG (and +1 to AC if Dex based).

I think the ASI is better if DEX based and the same if STR based but it’s close enough it’s a preference thing.

I would choose based on if I had a Mini with 2 medium sized weapons or with 2 small weapons so it matches the PC on the sheet....
 

Tobold

Explorer
I'm covered with the Mini.

HeroForgeScreenshot.png
 

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