Scaling for a large group

criticalfumble · Nov 9, 2018

** minor spoilers for LMoP **

Hi everyone. In a couple months, I will get to DM face to face for a rather large group of 8 players. I've been gaming with some of them as far back as AD&D and the early 80's. Others probably play D&D only this one time each year, and have played a handful of times. It's a large group, and a diverse one in terms of experience.

We've taken their characters through LMoP, and they are now fifth level, cooling their heels in Phandalin. As a hook to move the story forward, I've led them to believe that the problem with the forge of spells in the mines that causes its enchantments to be only temporary is that the forge must be fed with truly high quality (albeit non-magical) gear such as the finest dwarven forged armor and elven blades in order to work correctly. My intention was to have Gundren dispatch them in search of another party he'd sent to procure such items, or failing that, metal smiths of the highest skill. This second group had been dispatched some time ago, but has yet to return.

I was going to use this as a springboard into the Forge of Fury (although with today's release, I am sorely tempted to somehow drop them into the Undermountain instead

). Problem is, not only FoF for characters a couple levels lower but also for a reasonable number of them. I was going to scale the encounters a bit, as I had done for LMoP, but I don't simply want to throw more mooks at the party and turn it into a grindy chore. I could also swap out the existing monsters for a similar number of more beefy ones, and I have found a couple good posts about that and FoF specifically.

What advice do you have for scaling for groups this large and keeping things fun?

As a side note, I did a quick check on Kobold Fight Club and figured out that XP / encounter difficulty wise, a group of 8 5th level characters equates more or less to a group of 4 8th level characters. Looking at adventures for 8th level characters, it causes me to think that this may be about more than sheer XP. Some of those 8th level appropriate monsters are a bit nasty.

Thanks!

Shiroiken · Nov 9, 2018

Keep combat quick. Let players know that they have to determine their action within a few seconds or be forced to Dodge. It may seem mean, but with a group of that size combat is going to take a while, so you need to shorten it as much as possible. Otherwise a simple encounter may take an hour, reducing the overall time for the rest of the adventure.

An old school idea would be to have the group elect a party leader. That player will be the one to give the DM the groups overall action/direction outside of combat. Individual players may choose to do something else, of course. If a player has a suggestion for the party leader, they can offer it, possibly sparking a short discussion, but the party leader's decision should be final. If the group becomes unhappy with their current party leader, they can elect a new one to take his place. The advantage of this is to prevent a 20+ minute discussion at each decision point, but some players may balk at the idea of one player having more power than the others.

criticalfumble · Nov 9, 2018

Shiroiken said:
Keep combat quick. Let players know that they have to determine their action within a few seconds or be forced to Dodge. It may seem mean, but with a group of that size combat is going to take a while, so you need to shorten it as much as possible. Otherwise a simple encounter may take an hour, reducing the overall time for the rest of the adventure.

An old school idea would be to have the group elect a party leader. That player will be the one to give the DM the groups overall action/direction outside of combat. Individual players may choose to do something else, of course. If a player has a suggestion for the party leader, they can offer it, possibly sparking a short discussion, but the party leader's decision should be final. If the group becomes unhappy with their current party leader, they can elect a new one to take his place. The advantage of this is to prevent a 20+ minute discussion at each decision point, but some players may balk at the idea of one player having more power than the others.

Enforcing a time limit sounds like a great idea, especially considering scotch will probably be involved. How about *which* creatures - scale up the CR of a similar number of monsters compared to the original, or scale out the number of them?

Draegn · Nov 10, 2018

Generally I give each of my players an appropriate foe to deal with and run the group combat as several individual ones. The exception to this is when the party splits, then one smaller group might find themselves to be outnumbered. Also there are the special enemies which require the characters to plan with great care.

ad_hoc · Nov 10, 2018

Published adventures are balanced for 4 characters.

My general advice is that 6 characters are twice as strong as 4.

8? I don't know, they're very strong. At the difficulty needed to challenge them encounters will end up being about which side gets momentum. Death spirals are a thing. One thing to do is to have many creatures attack and have them come in waves. But then it will take an entire session just for combat.

Personally I don't think the game works beyond 5 players so good luck.

Shiroiken · Nov 10, 2018

criticalfumble said:
Enforcing a time limit sounds like a great idea, especially considering scotch will probably be involved. How about *which* creatures - scale up the CR of a similar number of monsters compared to the original, or scale out the number of them?

Higher CR monsters will make the encounters feel more exciting, because they'll deal more damage, but the action economy will actually put them behind. If you're doing a one-shot, larger monsters might be better, because they'll have quicker, more exciting combats. If you're doing a full campaign, I'd try to add 1 monster per PC you add to keep up with the action economy, giving longer, but more meaningful combats (i.e. reducing resources).

MechaPilot · Nov 10, 2018

I just increase the number of monsters proportionally to the party increase. A typical party is 4 PCs. So, if I had a group of 8 PCs I'd double the number of each monster encountered. Likewise, if I had a group of 6 PCs I'd add 50% more monsters instead of doubling them.

This makes sense for most monsters, just not for the unique "boss" monsters like Xanathar, or the Elemental Evil Princes. For those fights, I add enemy minions equal to the XP value of the "boss" monster (assuming double the normal number of PCs).

criticalfumble · Nov 10, 2018

The "plan with great care" attacks are my favorite. They're usually overly complicated plans that are fun to concoct and go horribly awry almost immediately. Maybe I'll include especially nasty foes that they can learn about with some notice to get them suitably worried and give them some time to prepare.

Draegn said:
Generally I give each of my players an appropriate foe to deal with and run the group combat as several individual ones. The exception to this is when the party splits, then one smaller group might find themselves to be outnumbered. Also there are the special enemies which require the characters to plan with great care.

criticalfumble · Nov 10, 2018

ad_hoc said:
Published adventures are balanced for 4 characters.

My general advice is that 6 characters are twice as strong as 4.

8? I don't know, they're very strong. At the difficulty needed to challenge them encounters will end up being about which side gets momentum. Death spirals are a thing. One thing to do is to have many creatures attack and have them come in waves. But then it will take an entire session just for combat.

Personally I don't think the game works beyond 5 players so good luck.

I hear you on 8 being powerful and maybe not really possible. Monsters that will challenge them have a decent chance of wiping them out. I guess that'll be old school if it happens!

Maybe I'll make it less about combat and layer in some puzzles or a developing mystery.

criticalfumble · Nov 10, 2018

Shiroiken said:
Higher CR monsters will make the encounters feel more exciting, because they'll deal more damage, but the action economy will actually put them behind. If you're doing a one-shot, larger monsters might be better, because they'll have quicker, more exciting combats. If you're doing a full campaign, I'd try to add 1 monster per PC you add to keep up with the action economy, giving longer, but more meaningful combats (i.e. reducing resources).

It's a weird hybrid of one shot and campaign because we rarely get to play face to face. Leaning toward fewer, more challenging monsters to make things exciting and quicker.