Mythological Figures: Odysseus/Ulysses (5E)

Kobold Stew · Jan 21, 2019

This is really good -- we actually have a lot of information about him, from the same pair of sources (the Homeric poems), and so I think this is a reasonable challenge. I'm going to suggest some slightly different solutions, but in general I think this is the best of this series so far.

Drawing only in the Iliad and Odyssey, there are many specific abilities that it is worth trying to replicate:

Iliad 23 - Od is the fastest at Troy (~Mobility feat and at least Rogue 2?)
Iliad 23 - Od is the best wrestler at Troy (Grapple build: perhaps 18 Str, Expertise in Athletics from Rogue 2, Second attack from Fighter 5, Reliable talent with Rogue 11; possible the Lucky feat (Athena's influence)).
Od 8 - Od is able to throw heavier discus further than others (5e doesn't mess with ranges much, but I suspect the Sharpshooter feat (first two points, which work with thrown weapons) is adequate.)

Let's start with those three.

I agree with your choice of a Fighter/Rogue split. My instinct is that Reliable Talent means that It should be 11 Rogue/9 Fighter (with one use of Indominable) or 12 Rogue/8 Fighter (with an extra ASI), or even 13 Rogue/7 Fighter (if you accept my suggested Rogue specialization, below).

XGTE gives subclasses that help:

Rogue (skirmisher) gives
* expertise equivalent in Nature and Survival (cf. his raft building and trading water in Od 5)
* superior mobility (cf. footrace in Iliad 23)
* a level 13, Ambush master, giving advantage on initiative (cf. Iliad 10, and the story told by Helen in Od 4)

Fighter (samurai) gives
* more skill proficiencies
* fighting spirit (advantage on select attacks; cf. Od 21, which also seems to be a Sharpshooter +5/-10)
* elegant courtier gives wisdom bonus to Persuasion checks, and proficiency in Wisdom checks (and wisdom supports insight and survival, which both seem relevant). The strongest argument against this is that he significantly fails a wisdom check when Penelope brings up the bed in Od. 23. Whatever stats he ends up with, she is BETTER at deception (or her Deception is more successful than his insight); cf. also the trick with the shroud.So the question becomes when does he get his 7th level in fighter?

Odysseus is certainly proficient (and perhaps with Expertise) in Deception (the three Cretan stories in Od. 13, 14, 19) and Performance (Od 9-12, esp. 11 when the king interrupts and says "How like a bard you speak...".) I'd also say proficient in Persuasion (Il 2 -- possibly Charismatic Leader here) and (as above) Athletics (with Expertise). Other skills would include Stealth (Il 10), and proficiency in the lyre, vehicles (water), and disguise kit. He might not be proficient in Insight, though (as above, and cf. his stupid moves with the Cyclops in Od 9).

If there is a feature from a background that Odysseus seems to have, I'd suggest it's the "By Popular Demand" feature of the Entertainer.

Rogue 13/Fighter 7 still leaves six ASIs, and (personal opinion here) if Homer played D&D, Odysseus would be his character and he would have rolled all those 18s at home, honestly -- so they can all be used for feats (I've suggested Sharpshooter, Lucky, and Mobility).

Arguably, he doesn't show the benefits I've suggested of Fighter 7 until he is on the Island of the Phaeacians in Od. 6 (just weeks before he returns to Ithaca), but (if the above is reasonable) he is Rogue 13/Fighter 3 (at least) by Iliad 10 -- though he is the only one inside the Trojan Horse who makes the Insight check vs. Helen's Deception (told in Od 4).

Re: stringing the bow: Odyssey 21. 128-29 shows that Telemachus too has the ability to string the bow, but with difficulty (no one else can). It doesn't pay to try to understand the trick shot -- the text is not clear, and there are many scholarly interpretations, none of which is generally accepted).

Thanks a lot! I hope my comments show how provocative this one is.

Beowulf · Jan 21, 2019

TheCosmicKid said:
The way 5e handles bows is far too outlandish already for me to really protest, but in actual archery there's no magic trick (short of mechanical aid) that will allow you to string a bow, recurve or otherwise, without the exertion of strength. If you want to translate the concept to D&D, the relevant proficiency would be Athletics letting you add a bonus to your Strength check by using proper technique. Still a Strength check.

And then, remember, Odysseus pulls the bow. Again, no magic trick that will let you pull a hundred-pound bow without exerting a hundred pounds of force.

You're willing to accept lightning bolt spells, but not a bow that has a "trick" to stringing it?

Ok.

dave2008 · Jan 21, 2019

Hmm. It seems my first comment disappeared. So I will make a new one!

In general I like it, but it seems odd that a 20th level character would not have a maxed stat or at least one stat at 18. Obysseus is a hard one because he as basically good at everything. He should probably have higher strength, but there is only so much room for improvement. I don't recall him being overly dexterious, but my last classics class was 26 years ago, so my memory is not so great. I would probably give him higher strength and then a trait / feat to allow him to use his strength modifier when using his longbox. That way you can lower his Dex.

Also, there is something wrong with the longbow damage. It should be: 7 (1d8 + 3)

EDIT: I forgot to thank you for another great entry - thanks you for sharing!

Beowulf · Jan 21, 2019

Mike Myler said:
In the Odyssey though it's thought that Homer is talking about a recurve bow

Citation needed.

From somewhere legitimate.

EDIT: Ah, I searched that link for "Odysseus" and didn't find anything, so assumed it wasn't mentioned. But it's there as a reference to "Odyss". Still, it's not really evidence as much as conjecture. I've always remembered it as being about strength, but I'm going to go check out what it actually says in the Odyssey. BRB.

EDIT 2: Huh. So, upon re-reading it, all the suitors are described as not being strong enough to string it, but when Odysseus himself does so it is indeed described more as skill than strength. Interesting.

So here's a solution: a new kind of bow on the weapon list, that is neither Martial nor Simple, but rather "Exotic" or "Other". Its description includes that if you don't have proficiency it's an Athletics DC of 25 to string it. Odysseus spends a Feat gaining proficiency.

The Crimson Binome · Jan 21, 2019

Beowülf said:
You're willing to accept lightning bolt spells, but not a bow that has a "trick" to stringing it?

A trick bow wouldn't prove that Odysseus was a better person than any of the suitors present. Otherwise, they could watch him string it, and then repeat the trick. Superior strength would prove that he's innately superior.

The story always made perfect sense, in any edition of D&D that included Strength bows. Odysseus had Strength 18/00, and a bow built to support that. Only one in 21600 individuals could possibly match him.

TheCosmicKid · Jan 21, 2019

Beowülf said:
You're willing to accept lightning bolt spells, but not a bow that has a "trick" to stringing it?

Ok.

If Homer described a magic bow that has a trick to stringing it, I'd accept that. But he doesn't. He repeatedly describes the bow-stringing challenge as a contest of strength, and Odysseus himself boasts of his strength immediately after stringing the bow. The Odyssey has fantastic elements, but this is a mundane scene. The setting is Odysseus' own home, the antagonists are ordinary men. The action would have been personally familiar to many of the original listeners -- hell, it's familiar to me, with my mere amateur dabbling in archery: a novice straining to string a heavy bow, then an expert saying, "Hey, give it here", and smoothly stringing it without apparent effort. It's not that there's no trick to it. Of course there's a trick. But the trick is useless without strength.

Remember also what's going on here narratively: this is a demonstration of Odysseus' right to wed Penelope and rule Ithaca as king. In one of the most testosterone-soaked cultures in human history. There are indeed parts of the Odysseus where Odysseus is a sneaky weasel. This part is reassuring us that he is also a mighty badass warrior.

Garthanos · Jan 21, 2019

A note ...the character Mike Mearls used Odysseus as his go to flavor text dude... for his happy fun hour Fighter Warlord subclass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmbrXdBt1U

Pauln6 · Jan 21, 2019

There is nothing wrong with not having uber stats but you could use lucky and prodigy to reflect some of the gaps. Personally, I'd probably reduce wisdom slightly and increase strength slightly. Many of his feats are due to high intelligence and high athletics rather than other issues.

Also an odyssey is a great time to learn new tool proficiencies RAW.

Beowulf · Jan 21, 2019

TheCosmicKid said:
If Homer described a magic bow that has a trick to stringing it, I'd accept that. But he doesn't. He repeatedly describes the bow-stringing challenge as a contest of strength, and Odysseus himself boasts of his strength immediately after stringing the bow. The Odyssey has fantastic elements, but this is a mundane scene. The setting is Odysseus' own home, the antagonists are ordinary men. The action would have been personally familiar to many of the original listeners -- hell, it's familiar to me, with my mere amateur dabbling in archery: a novice straining to string a heavy bow, then an expert saying, "Hey, give it here", and smoothly stringing it without apparent effort. It's not that there's no trick to it. Of course there's a trick. But the trick is useless without strength.

Remember also what's going on here narratively: this is a demonstration of Odysseus' right to wed Penelope and rule Ithaca as king. In one of the most testosterone-soaked cultures in human history. There are indeed parts of the Odysseus where Odysseus is a sneaky weasel. This part is reassuring us that he is also a mighty badass warrior.

Wait, are we (by which I mean 'you') talking about the Odyssey, or D&D? You seem to be jumping back and forth.

But if we're talking strictly about the Odyssey, I think you should go re-read the text. Based on my memory of the story I was skeptical, too, then I re-read it. I now think there's a strong case to be made that he did it with finesse. But I'm not arguing that is the definitive interpretation. Just that it's interesting, and plausible.

YMMV, of course. That's cool, too.

Pauln6 · Jan 21, 2019

Personally, I think it would still be within the OPs ambit to grant divine boons to boost stats where the literary characters are demi gods or favoured by the gods.