On the Dodge Action

On another thread, a poster stated that he used the dodge action “all the time and its awesome”, I thought that using your action to dodge was a waste of an action and stated my belief that in all the years of playing I have only seen it used 4-5 times. I asked to claimant to start a dodge thread to share the awesomeness of Dodge, but I will and put my thoughts here. I could be completely wrong about the Dodge action and just missed it, if so, this is the way to find out.
First some argument parameters:

1. This is about using your Action to Dodge, not using Dodge as a bonus or free action, that’s a different story.
2. Dodge give attackers you can see disadvantage, and you make dexterity saving throws with advantage. If you speed drops to zero you lose these benefits.
3. For the purpose of this thread, I will use Disadvantage as the equivalent of +3 to your AC, and advantage on your DEX saving throw as +3 to that saving throw.
4. For the purpose of this thread I will assume that an enemy has a %50 chance to hit you or you have a %50 chance to make that DEX saving throw without figuring you using the Dodge action.

For the above I realize my numbers are not the actual expectations of the value of advantage or disadvantage, but I want to pick a middle ground and use something easily understandable.

Now, let’s say you use Dodge as an Action, you give up all other actions, including all your attacks, use of non-bonus action spells, and all bonus actions that require you take an attack action to activate i.e. you can’t use your action to dodge and then take Shield Masters bonus action shove for example. I see the possible results as follows.

1. No enemy attacks you or makes you use make a DEX saving throw: You have wasted your action doing nothing.
2. Enemies attack you through non DEX saving throw, say Sacred Flame or Dissonant Whispers or something like that: You have wasted your action.
3. Enemies attack your AC or Dex:
   1. An Enemy will miss you or you will make your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time even if you didn’t use the Dodge Action: this clearly happens as if one roll misses with disadvantage they miss or if you make one roll with advantage you succeed. Dodge had no effect.
   2. An Enemy attacking you will normally hit you or you will fail your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time, using Dodge will decrease that chance to %35. Dodge (for this argument) is +3 or %15.
   3. Dodge essentially changes 3 “hits” into misses.

1. From 3 above, you can see that an Enemy will miss their attack %50 of the time even if you DID NOT use the Dodge Action and will succeed %35 of the time even if you DID use the Dodge Action, therefore the Dodge Action has no effect on the outcome %85 of the time.
2. So %85 of the time using the Dodge action means you have just wasted your action doing nothing.

Now I get that the %85 of the time is not situational, its just covers general use. Of course, as a player you get to select when to use it, and I will assume that you as a player will use it in the best situations possible, i.e. that you have perfect tactical sense.

My thoughts:

I believe this game combat system is built on action economy, the players get better and more powerful actions then their enemies and get the benefit of better co-ordination and planning of their actions. That’s how the PCs win. Maybe I am wrong on this, let me know.

Therefore, I think the Dodge action is a waste of an action in at least %85 of the cases, maybe more as you might not get attacked by an effect Dodge can help or have you speed reduced to zero for some reason. I don’t know the exact number, and I don’t think it could be calculated but only through stat keeping across a bunch of combats and usage of dodge could it be determined. But I don’t think I am that far off with the %85 number, let me know.

I realize you have a team with you also, if I am correct on Dodge being a waste of an Action around %85 of time I don’t see how that helps them either. IF all the Enemy decided to attack you and IF you absorbed all their actions that would have went against your team and IF all of those actions fell into the %15 bonus range that Dodge gives you, maybe that’s worth your action.

I get that there are some rare exceptions were Dodge could be useful, but they are just that, exceptions. Dodge is not an action to be used “all the time” and I don’t think anyone uses it “all the time,” but I don’t know what “all the time” means to others. “All the time” means constantly or habitually in this context, like I said at the top I have only seen it used 4-5 times over the years, but it could just be my memory failing. Let me know.

I do not think Dodge was or is ever awesome in any use of the word. I do think attacking or casting a spell to your last breath is awesome, and getting out harm’s way (like with misty step or disengage) is a much better use of an action. If you have HP to trade i.e. you won’t die from the incoming attacks or spells then Dodge to me should never be taken. If you do die well that’s what you have teammates for.

I just don’t think trading your entire Action is worth +3 to AC and +3 to DEX saving throws. I am not even sure I would do it if the bonus was +5 to both.
Have I missed something with action economy and the use of Dodge as your Action?

P.S. remember this is Dodge used as an action, not dodge used for a bonus or free action.

Sorry for the improper format of numbering, I pasted this from Word and they didn't port over right

smbakeresq said:

Sorry for the improper format of numbering, I pasted this from Word and they didn't port over right

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I think the error is in trying to estimate value divorced from challenge when you are looking at a choice.

Against a beast/monstrosity like say a bear or a troll, getting one guy close and dodging can be great. It's not a very bright enemy and it's not very versatile - so if the guy hit it early to draw its ire then starts dodging that's a lot of attacks made at disad.

Even if it decides to move after others you get your AO.

Even if it keeps doing that you get to spread out its damage round by round as it shifts away from dodgers - taking AO.

You would not want to use it in situations where a wide variety of attack types was an issue - until some had been taken out.

Value of any single option among many is always going to be so highly circumstantial that broad "generic assessments" will tend to miss the mark.

It's better IMO to not ask "how good/bad is dodge" but rather "when is dodge good/bad*?

That said, at 50% hit chance, disadvantage drops that to 25%, the equivalent of +5. More to the point, it drops the odds of a crit to 1 in 400 and the odds of hitting with claw-claw-bite triple crown from 1 in 8 to 1 in 64 so you are really slamming the odds of the high end outputs wsy down - which may be critical if the chance of "one shot" is present.

Yeah, when you use inaccurate math and take the dodge action in the least favorable circumstances, it’s absolutely a waste of time.

It’s complete garbage in social interactions and only occasionally useful during exploration, too.

How the heck are you still missing my thread about the dodge action that I started yesterday BEFORE you even asked me to

5ekyu said:

I think the error is in trying to estimate value divorced from challenge when you are looking at a choice.

[snip]

Value of any single option among many is always going to be so highly circumstantial that broad "generic assessments" will tend to miss the mark.

It's better IMO to not ask "how good/bad is dodge" but rather "when is dodge good/bad*?

That said, at 50% hit chance, disadvantage drops that to 25%, the equivalent of +5. More to the point, it drops the odds of a crit to 1 in 400 and the odds of hitting with claw-claw-bite triple crown from 1 in 8 to 1 in 64 so you are really slamming the odds of the high end outputs wsy down - which may be critical if the chance of "one shot" is present.

Click to expand...

It is not a +/- 5 at 50% see here.

EDIT: Due to a misinterpretation of the data in my link my post below is incorrect. See post #31

[-]This topic comes up a LOT in forums. At 50% chance to hit ADV/DIS has the least effect on the outcome, not even altering a roll by 1. So when there is a 50% chance to succeed, then dodge is a bad option. This is like saying why have the dash action, its a terrible option for action assuming the enemy is within 25ft of you.

That being said, you are correct that the OP is trying to put mediocre rolls in place to work out when dodge would be good. Your question "when is dodge good/bad?" should give the answer "it's bad whenever your DC is close to needing a 10 on the d20 and good when you want extremes (1 or 20)" So @smbakeresq assumptions will always make the dodge action bad.

To be more specific:
Use dodge when your tank (splint, shield and defensive fighting style for 20 AC) is holding a choke point. The less damage he takes the less party resources (healing) is needed after the fight. Similarly if he is low on HP and his opponent(s) aren't - making an attack won't drop an opponent, but staying standing longer absorbs more actions from the enemy.

A Wizard who finds himself in a poor tactical situation. Disengage leaves him within a move of his attackers, so they'll move and attack on their turns. If he takes the dodge action, then casts shield (giving him an AC around 21, depending on his DEX) when attacked he's looking at absorbing a lot of enemy actions by simply staying there.[/-]

TallIan said:

It is not a +/- 5 at 50% see here. This topic comes up a LOT in forums. At 50% chance to hit ADV/DIS has the least effect on the outcome, not even altering a roll by 1. So when there is a 50% chance to succeed, then dodge is a bad option. This is like saying why have the dash action, its a terrible option for action assuming the enemy is within 25ft of you.

That being said, you are correct that the OP is trying to put mediocre rolls in place to work out when dodge would be good. Your question "when is dodge good/bad?" should give the answer "it's bad whenever your DC is close to needing a 10 on the d20 and good when you want extremes (1 or 20)" So [MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION] assumptions will always make the dodge action bad.

To be more specific:
Use dodge when your tank (splint, shield and defensive fighting style for 20 AC) is holding a choke point. The less damage he takes the less party resources (healing) is needed after the fight. Similarly if he is low on HP and his opponent(s) aren't - making an attack won't drop an opponent, but staying standing longer absorbs more actions from the enemy.

A Wizard who finds himself in a poor tactical situation. Disengage leaves him within a move of his attackers, so they'll move and attack on their turns. If he takes the dodge action, then casts shield (giving him an AC around 21, depending on his DEX) when attacked he's looking at absorbing a lot of enemy actions by simply staying there.

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If i need 11+ to hit you
You give me disad then i have to make two 11+ rolls which is a 25% chance.
Thats the same as a net 5 on the d20 shift.

Thats dropping me from 50% to 25% or a net half the original chance etc etc etc.

No idea what leads you to see it as not altering a roll by 1.

Thats not math.

As I have posted in the other Dodge thread, it is an underutilized action, mostly because players like dealing damage instead. I wouldn't say it should be used "all the time," but there are several situation where the Dodge action is the best choice.

The primary benefit is when you can force the enemy to only attack a single character. This can be a choke point against multiple enemies or a single enemy held by a Sentinel Feat. In addition, some unintelligent enemies (such as undead or constructs) may always focus on the enemy in front of them, even if they don't actually attack them.

Another good use is by melee characters starting combat at range. Most players use the Dash action, and get pounded by ranged attacks while they run up to get to melee. Sometimes they'll throw a weapon (often at disadvantage), which is only slightly better. If the character was to take the Dodge action and move forward (ideally moving from cover to cover), they are unlikely to take as much damage before getting into position. Depending on the party make up and the exact situation, it is very possible that the combat will be over before they get into melee, but this is not actually a problem if they managed to reduce the overall amount of damage taken.

If low on HP while in melee, using the Dodge action while waiting for the party to heal you can be worthwhile, since you don't want to take enough damage to drop to 0.


Unfortunately, it really depends on how the DM runs the enemy as to how useful it is. If the DM always has the enemy make the tactically best situation, then it's not that useful (unless you're low on HP), since they will almost never attack you. If the DM considers the intelligence of the enemy to determine the attacks, then it becomes a much better option, since you can get attacks to miss.

Like many other things, dodge is situationally the right call. It is to me most often used when you don't have any effective recourse against a foe for a given round, either because that foe is unattackable for some reason or you are in a terrible position and need to get into better position. The two examples in a game I can think of were:

1) Our party had to cross a hall in a keep in which we discovered multiple murder holes existed with archers peppering anyone who came down the hall. We dodged to run the gauntlet to get to the door at the end where we could get out of danger and find the actual ingress to the rooms where said guards were located.
SIDE NOTE: Our DM tried that trick many levels later, when I was a 13th level Druid. I smiled, turned the walls of the murder-hall to mud and we finished off the guards then and there.

2) Our group once faced off against an invisible foe who would attack from invisibility, go back invisible next round, and attack from hiding again. On rounds we had no means of attacking him, I (as a wizard who didn't like getting hit) would dodge and take cover to reduce his hit chance (-2 on TOP of him losing his advantage!) and popped out to attack when he became visible.

smbakeresq said:

I asked to claimant to start a dodge thread to share the awesomeness of Dodge, but I will and put my thoughts here.

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So you asked someone to make a thread about dodge, they did so....and then you decided to clutter the forum with another thread about the exact same topic?