The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

Shasarak · Dec 9, 2018

dragoner said:
Kylo's arc eclipses Rey's, huh. I find it interesting that people think she should stay a virginal murder-machine, that is better, more pure? Also, does a woman lose her agency in a romantic relationship? Very strange. I think some of it is immaturity, which Star Wars has plenty of; even though Rogue One, shows there is a market for a more mature audience.

It is just because it is an American movie made for an American audience.

dragoner · Dec 9, 2018

Maybe. /shrug

jonesy said:
I'd like to rant a little about this whole business of things having meanings. I think I've said this here before years ago, but you know what ruined a large part of my love for Star Wars? The EU.

This has relevance to me, while I don't know much about the EU, I remain peripheral to the fandom at large, I did buy a Star Wars t-shirt at Macy's the other day, except that is probably just nostalgia. I don't really think there is a problem with the Disney Star Wars, it's me, not them. I have simply outgrown the franchise. I will still go see the movies, knowing they won't ever get back to what it meant to me as a kid, and I remain in the shadow of what was.

Umbran · Dec 9, 2018

dragoner said:
Do you believe that a woman, as a sexual creature, it demeans them?

Hardly. You are taking only part of the point.

Broadly speaking, in the history of literature and film, female characters are far too frequently defined by their role in the male character's life. They are most often defined by their sexuality. It is, as I said above, cliche.

That's the real point - there are already tons of female characters who are the male's significant other, in one form or another. The female who *doesn't* become the love interest is more rare, and therefore more interesting, imho.

I figure the whole pure violence maiden, like Brunhilda - that's the libertarian ubermensch; it doesn't mean much to me as I'm more eastern, not german.

It has nothing to do with the scene where they slaughter Snoke's guards, ro any other bit of violence from the movie. That is a false dichotomy - romance with Kylo Ren or slaughter! As if those are the only choices? There's a world of other narratives, dude.

And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.

dragoner · Dec 10, 2018

Umbran said:
You are taking only part of the point.

I'm continuing with what was already there:

Kylo Ren: Rey... I want you to join me. We can rule together ...

A natural end result, and in line with other themes like:

Rose Tico: We're going to win this war not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!

Rey does have feelings for Kylo. Heartbreak and desire have a certain gravitas that override cliche, not that Star Wars doesn't have a ton of cliche in it already. It is a chance to develop the characters, but obviously in a more mature manner. Romance or slaughter are the choices the movie made, I just observed it, and feel that romance would have been the better choice. *In General* I find a lot of the violence gratuitous in that the outcome is preordained, so in the end it is only a see how they win scene. That is more of the cliche of the movies, it's filler.

And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.

More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.

Umbran · Dec 10, 2018

dragoner said:
More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.

First the libertarian thing, and now Men's Rights Activist lingo? Pardon me for a second...

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dragoner · Dec 10, 2018

Are you saying you are one of those types?

Istbor · Dec 10, 2018

Umbran said:
Not as such. While they haven't really defined it in the new movies, going on the old canon, the Sith were a specific tradition of users of the Dark Side of the Force. Snoke never uses the term "Sith". Andy Serkis (the actor for Snoke) went so far as to say explicitly that Snoke was not a Sith Lord.

Snoke was some other user of the Dark Side. So, Kylo Ren is not Sith either.

Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things. Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.

You are of course on point in regards to Snoke. We don't know who or what Snoke really was. Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order.

I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits. Especially if we see a jump in time.

Zardnaar · Dec 10, 2018

Istbor said:
Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things. Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.

You are of course on point in regards to Snoke. We don't know who or what Snoke really was. Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order.

I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits. Especially if we see a jump in time.

Kylo Ren is a Dark Jedi not a Sith.