D&D 5E Nightwalker: Really a CR 20?

Stalker0 · Dec 6, 2018

Every since the 3e MM, the Nightcrawler has been one of my favorite monsters....mainly because the artwork was so amazing.

Now looking at the 5e version in Tome of Foes....I feel like it doesn't quite live up to its CR 20.

Just using the ballpark calculations from the DMG:

1) Defensive CR: 14

Very low AC, HP are nothing special. The immunities aren't particularly good at this point.

2) Offensive CR: 18

For this I assumed that every party member is failing its save against this creature, as a DC 21 is very hard to pass. I assumed 2 characters are getting stuck in the aura. Then I assumed the creature uses its finger of doom to get an immediate paralyze, which gives it 3 crits do to coup de grace. The effect only lasts for 1 round, so the 3rd round is just normal attacks.

That puts the average damage output at about 105, with a bump for a strong attack bonus.

So average CR 16. Further, the mental stats on this creature are abysmal. Any caster worth their salt at these level is going to have a mid-level wisdom or charisma check whammy that the creature has basically no hope of fending off. The only thing scary about this creature is the life drain, which can be very nasty. But all in all this creature doesn't bring enough defense to hold on very long, and its offensive....while having some very scary long term effects...is just not cutting the mustard against what level 20's...or even level 16s....bring to the table.

Does anyone have any experience with this creature that would suggest otherwise?

ad_hoc · Dec 6, 2018

CR 20 is a Hard encounter for 4 level 15 characters. Medium for 4 level 18 characters.

It essentially is a high level ghoul; possibly able to create a death spiral so it needs a high CR to signal that danger. Its Life Drain is a huge hit to the party's resources for the day. They can't just heal up after that so will be continuing on in rough shape. You're also assuming that the players have read the monster's entry and are picking the right spells and such for its weaknesses.

Finally, the party must somehow capture/bargain with it without destroying it in order to defeat it. That is no easy goal.

Azzy · Dec 6, 2018

No experience with it in 5e, but it's been one of my favorite monsters since I first read the D&D Master Rules boxed set. I'd love to see what others have to say because I'd like to include one in a game at some point.

AtomicPope · Dec 6, 2018

I've used Nightwalkers in my game and their power comes from the permanent effects of their special abilities. Imagine playing the same hero since 1st level for over 2 years. The barrier of Fading Lands near your home town finally collapses opening a rift to Shadowfell. The town you called home for 2 years in real time is completely annihilated and your 17th level cleric cannot bring anyone back. You use Divine Intervention and only your god's hand can bring the dead to life, and just one person. When the PCs listen to the story they discover what they're up against. When you're reduced to zero hit points near a Nightwalker you're annihilated, like Thanos snapping his fingers. Gone. Then the terror sets in. They have to hunt down two of them.

That was how I introduced my high level players to Nightwalkers. I think you're underestimating the power of permanent death in a game that has Resurrection. Nightwalker's can destroy a Wizard or Rogue in a single turn with above average rolls. Their Annihilating Aura is where the power comes from. If a PC fails their save the Nightwalker get Advantage on attack rolls, and mind you a DC 21 Constitution save is not easy. Most non-fighting classes will fail that save even at 20th level. Combine this with the fact that Enervating Focus reduces a PC's hit point maximum by the amount of damage done which could be over 100hp total in a single round of attacks and you have a very, very dangerous monster. If the party doesn't have someone to cast a Heal Spell the PC getting attacked will be permanently destroyed in a round or two because normal healing won't work.

About defenses, their AC is mediocre but with nearly 300 hit points and laundry list of resistances and immunities the Nightwalker are fairly durable. You don't beat a Nightwalker in a straight up fight. You banish them back to Shadowfell. It's really their only weakness.

Li Shenron · Dec 6, 2018

ad_hoc said:
Finally, the party must somehow capture/bargain with it without destroying it in order to defeat it. That is no easy goal.

Usually people evaluate monsters stats without looking at the story, but I think you point out what is a remarkable feature of this monster: if you kill it, someone will be stuck forever in the negative energy plane.

If you run the game with more focus on purposes and achievements, then "winning" an encounter with a Nightwalker gets a new definition, at least for non-evil PCs. And it immediately becomes a lot more difficult. Let's face it, most players who consider themselves "good" at D&D are probably very efficient at killing this monster but would be poor at not-killing it.

Zardnaar · Dec 6, 2018

CR 20 is not for level 20 PCs, its more like for level 10-12. RAW its probably a solo for level 13 or so I don;'t have the encounter guidelines handy.

dave2008 · Dec 6, 2018

AS several people already noted, a CR 20 is not a solo encounter for lvl 20 pcs. If you want it be a deadly encounter (i.e. a significant chance of a PC death) your looking at lvl 12-13 for the PCs. However, I haven't checked your math, so it could be under performing for a CR 20 monster IDK.

GothicEmperor · Dec 6, 2018

Zardnaar said:
CR 20 is not for level 20 PCs, its more like for level 10-12. RAW its probably a solo for level 13 or so I don;'t have the encounter guidelines handy.

Xanathar's says it's lvl 15 for 6 players, lv 17 for 4 players, all for a medium encounter. Lvl 13 is a bit tougher but still doable, again according to the book.

Though I wouldn't necessarily use it as a solo monster, as it doesn't have any legendary actions and the like. It's more like a Balor, it works as the centre of a setpiece battle but can't be all of it.

Dausuul · Dec 6, 2018

AtomicPope said:
You don't beat a Nightwalker in a straight up fight. You banish them back to Shadowfell. It's really their only weakness.

It's not their only weakness. They have a -1 Charisma save and a 6 Intelligence. If there's a 14th-level necromancer in the party, an encounter with a nightwalker is like Christmas come early.

Quartz · Dec 6, 2018

Dausuul said:
It's not their only weakness. They have a -1 Charisma save and a 6 Intelligence.

And how is a party coming up against one for the first time going to know that?

If there's a 14th-level necromancer in the party, an encounter with a nightwalker is like Christmas come early.

How many people play necromancers?

And any GM worth their salt is going to change the monster slightly because those pesky players have read the Monster Manuals. Perhaps the Annihilating Aura is 120' radius with lower damage. Perhaps it recovers HP when Life Eater reduces a target to 0 HP?

Even without altering the monster you could have it use the treasure it carries. Perhaps it has a Ring of Dimension Door or a Crown of Teleportation. So it uses its Finger of Doom ability from 300' then Teleports next to the victim and attacks with two Enervating Focus attacks (and don't forget Annihilating Aura), then Teleports away. Perhaps with the victim. And watch out for one with a Ring of Invisibility!