Blending the D&Ds

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Now, what I liked about 1e/2e was the decent sized battles, henchmen, and follower management that started to get less common in 3e then non existent in 4e/5e.

4e has companion rules and swarms (I know 5e has boring monsters but it too has swarms and 4es can be pretty interesting I think better can be done) - mash em together with some creativity and you are on the road. However with some extra sauce like new custom martial practices and skill challenges tuned to interact with them, they become like that 2e Warrior Lord known as fighter or with different swarms Ranger Lord etc. Not to mention a zombie master becomes entirely within scope via rituals as well ;)

There are some pretty good foundations in 4e to do what you mentioned and make them an active element in adventures on top I am currently engaged in formalizing this mashing process.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I know how 4e is considered, but I wanted to touch more about how I think residuum and disenchantment is a GREAT idea, and I am not sure why they did not keep it going into 5th.

How many times, particularly in 2e or 3e or 5e did you run into a cool treasure like magic stuff you could not use?

PC Paladin: "Great! That was a tough fight versus the Evil Cleric and his cult. What does evil bad guy have for loot"?
PC Wizard: "I go through my detect magic/ curse/ identify routine"

DM: "Well, the plate is +3 full plate, necrotic resist."

PC Paladin: "Whoot! Beats my stuff! Upgrade tiiiime! Can I wear it"?
PC Fighter: "Hey, I could use some Plate, too. This +1 chain mail is looking kind of worn..."

DM: (feeling generous, but not too generous) "Well, with a good armorsmith's services you could probably do alterations. You know, when they make armor like plate, they custom fit them to the wearer. But there is a problem..."
PCs: "Huh?"
DM: "The evil battle cleric that wore it worshiped BIG EVIL EMO DEATH GOD. It's got skull pauldrons, a big emblazoned I LOVE B.E.E.D.G. symbol on the chest, and matching skull knee caps. If you wear it, you'll be stigmatized wherever you go..."
PCs: "well... bummer"
PC Rogue: "party loot (sigh)...Guess it goes in the bag of holding/ vault/ pawned off on some Temple of Goodie-Goodieness for disposal or whatever...."

BETTER.....

PC Wizard: "Hey... this gaudy plate that screams Evil Emo God Fanboy? I might get a few bags of residuum out of it. After all, Mr. Paladin, couldn't you use a ring of necrotic resist when we go after that undead shadow dragon who is behind it all next month? With the dark residuum from that, I could craft us a few rings with the help of a master jeweler! I have tool proficiency : enchanting and the level 2 Disenchant ritual! "

PC Rogue: "Awesome... Hey, DM, do I know any jewelers? My background says I was a fence"
DM rolls some dice...

DM: "Yes... you do. She lives in a statue garden in the undermarket. You have never seen her face, only a door with a slit to exchange money and items. They say the statues are of customers that never paid...."
Fun...
I didnt like some later adjustments to 4e like the rarity rules that effectively made some items more convertible to residuum and worth more "just because" and the described reasons for rarity didnt match up worth beans with the items they chose however for me it inspired a rule where your level affected the quality of your disenchant. The difference in your level and the level of the item determined how much you got back if were 5 levels higher than the item level you get the full 100% but only 20 percent at level. In effect if an item was one you wanted to hang on to it eventually was as valuable as the rarity rules made the arbitrary defined rare items. - This trade in price also happened if you sold it because after 5 levels it was assumed both you and those you sold an items to had better ideas of how valuable it is (you might have better contacts by then too).
 

Advilaar

Explorer
Fun...
I didnt like some later adjustments to 4e like the rarity rules that effectively made some items more convertible to residuum and worth more "just because" and the described reasons for rarity didnt match up worth beans with the items they chose however for me it inspired a rule where your level affected the quality of your disenchant. The difference in your level and the level of the item determined how much you got back if were 5 levels higher than the item level you get the full 100% but only 20 percent at level. In effect if an item was one you wanted to hang on to it eventually was as valuable as the rarity rules made the arbitrary defined rare items. - This trade in price also happened if you sold it because after 5 levels it was assumed both you and those you sold an items to had better ideas of how valuable it is (you might have better contacts by then too).

Aha!

That's where our old buddy 3e comes to save us from this rarity nonsense! 3e had effective plusses as well as enhancement plusses! (not sure if I am using the exact terms).

Each magic item has two kinds of plusses.

First, regular enhancement plusses. This is your +1, +2, etc plain old long sword or whatever. Second, you have effect plusses. These are things like spell storing, flaming, advantage on certain things, whatever. They are tied to usually the level of the spell needed to make the item, but not always.

For residuum purposes, all the plusses are added. Hence, a +2 flaming longsword +2d6 fire is actually considered a +4 weapon!

...and the cost rises exponentially the more plusses you add. As far as residuum per plus, it's exponential with spikes at certain thresholds.


You can save residuum by using special materials, of course. Icesteel swords come with 1d6 cold automatically non enchanted for free because it is a magic metal for free.

You keep some rarity in requiring 5e tool proficiencies. For instance, scrolls would require tool proficiency : scribe. Belts may need tool proficiency : skinning or taxidermy in addition to tool proficiency : enchanting, encouraging collaboration between players themselves, NPCs, or even followers and henchmen.

I do believe in my campaign I have created monsters. Every giant they run into, they cut the waist skins off of giants to make belts of giant STR.

As far as level 3 characters disenchanting vorpal swords and luck blades...Good old 5e rescues us there! Many 5e spells, you can cast at higher levels. The 4e ritual Disenchant could be made the same way. A 3rd level character may be able to disenchant the 5th +1 dagger the party finds. But if he wants to disenchant the +6 helm of "making you evil and cursing everyone in a 30 ft radius", he's going to need a more powerful caster who can blow a high level slot. Of course, artifacts... he's out of luck unless he's on good terms with a demigod or better. Even then, said demigod might get a kick out of sending them on some epic, contrived journey (much to an evil DM's delight. I can see it now.. to defeat the +300 toothpick of the evil gods, you have to go to TwelveTrees in the abyss and stick it in the teeth of the great Shabriri, Sirushi water demon lord of the 11th and 12th! Only then will it become a regular toothpick! Or turn to 8 metric tons of residuum! Muhahaha! Good luck getting that out of there!)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The 4e ritual Disenchant could be made the same way. A 3rd level character may be able to disenchant the 5th +1 dagger the party finds. But if he wants to disenchant the +6 helm of "making you evil and cursing everyone in a 30 ft radius", he's going to need a more powerful caster who can blow a high level slot.
in 4e if you were level 6 you might get a level 10 item (you cannot begin to disenchant it for 4 levels .... however if you sell it you can probably buy residuum or an item that is your level).

There are some feats or boons that allow you to enchant as though you were somewhat higher level ... I would probably allow them to disenchant as though they were higher level.

That 3e rule is very very complex sounding but no doubt one could definitely up the detail grade on the value of items by combining its as you put it plus values and the extra effects.
 

Advilaar

Explorer
in 4e if you were level 6 you might get a level 10 item (you cannot begin to disenchant it for 4 levels .... however if you sell it you can probably buy residuum or an item that is your level).

There are some feats or boons that allow you to enchant as though you were somewhat higher level ... I would probably allow them to disenchant as though they were higher level.

That 3e rule is very very complex sounding but no doubt one could definitely up the detail grade on the value of items by combining its as you put it plus values and the extra effects.

It is...

Here is an excerpt of my house rules I have been using for it for the last 4 or 5 years that combines 3e, 4e, and 5e. It's not perfect, but it works and if a PC wants something odd, I research and talk about it.

Creating Magic Weapons and Armor

The residuum cost for magic weapons depend on two factors: the enhancement pluses AND effect pluses. Add these together to get the total plus for cost. You need not have both on an item and each has it's separate maximum based on level, power, and epic boons.

Enhancement pluses are direct pluses TO HIT, such as the common +1 long sword. To be able to do this, you MUST have tool proficiency: enchanting and access to a facility where you are not disturbed for the ritual. You must know, have a scroll of or item, or have someone cast for you the spell Magic Weapon (PHB pg 257). The maximum bonus at 20th level is +3. However, some epic level characters, demipowers and gods can ignore this limitation with the appropriate epic boons or divine abilities.
Effect pluses are added effects to the weapon or armor. The fearsome vorpal blade, the blinding fast haste weapon, and the flaming weapon are all created through Effect Pluses. To apply an effect, you have to have a spell (listed in the description of each Effect Plus), have a scroll or other item, or have someone cast it for you. Effect pluses are limited to your level divided by 2.
Demipowers or those with certain Epic Boons can overcome the plus limitation of both types. See the Demipower and Epic Boons section.

The residuum cost goes up roughly exponentially based on the TOTAL pluses (enhancement pluses and effect pluses combined)

1 – 1,000
2 – 5,000
3 – 10,000 Cap for just enhancement bonus at 20th level.
4 – 20,000
5 – 40,000
6 – 100,000
7 – 200,000
8 – 500,000
9 – 1,000,000
10 – 2,000,000 Cap for total bonus.
11 – 4,000,000
12 – 8,000,000



… and so forth .

The time to enchant is one week per total plus. Enchanter must have access to a ritual room and be undisturbed to make progress for 8 hours. Some rare, special materials may come with free enhancements, cutting down cost and time.



























List of Effect Pluses (adapted from 3rd edition Epic Level Handbook by Bruce Cordell)

Bear in mind, this is BY NO MEANS all the effect pluses possible, but some of the more popular. If there is any effect here that you want to add to an armor or weapon, consult the DM and it may
be added.

Effect Description Plus Spell

AC Add 1 AC per. Rings, Amulets, or Cloaks only. Do not stack with each other. 1 per plus Shield of Faith or Shield.
Max 3

Bane Weapon (X) Add +1d6 damage versus certain type of creature. Requires powdered skull of such 1 per die Hunter's Mark (PHB pg 251)
creature for each additional plus.

Deflect Projectiles Can deflect projectiles and energy beams as long as these are not ballistic or 6 Gust of Wind (PHB pg 248)
disintegration as a reaction. DEX save vs attack roll.

Elemental (X) Add +1d6 damage of elemental type. Requires elemental residuum. 1 per die Elemental Weapon (PHB pg 237)

Elemental Immunity Immune to specified element. Requires elemental residuum. 10 Protection from Energy (PHB pg 270) AND an 8th level
spell slot.

Holy/Unholy +2d6 necrotic or radiant. Requires appropriate residuum. +2d6 bane vs 3 Bless (PHB pg 219), must be
evil or good immortal beings. be enchanted under a hallow
or unhallow as appropriate.

Keen/Bashing Increase crit range by 1. Stacks with class features and item properties. 3 3rd level slot.
Repeated enchants of this type DO NOT stack.

Resist Damage Half damage vs Physical Attacks. Must be a heavy material. 7 Stoneskin (PHB pg 278)
Does not stack with Barbarian class feature. or Wish (PHB pg 288)

Resist Element Choose an element, item grants resistance of that type. Requires elemental residuum. 2 Protection from Energy (PHB pg 270)

Saves Add +1 to a saving throw. Stacks. 1 per. Resistance or Guidance
max +3

Slaying Once per day specified type of creature makes con save or dies if hit. 9 Power Word: Kill (PHB pg 266)

Speed Extra attack with weapon. Does not stack. 8 Haste (PHB pg 250)

Spell Reflect Can reflect a targeted spell back as reaction once per day. Base item must 5 per level Counterspell (PHB pg 228)
have reflective gloss.

Spell Storing Store a spell for later use. 3+ level Spell Slot of level.

Vorpal Decapitate on crit, +8d8 damage if immune to vorpal. Requires force residuum. 10 5th level spell slot.

Permanent Spell Effects per Day

For the savvy enchanter, a one shot use of a spell that spell storing items use may be inconvenient. You can duplicate any spell and make the item have that spell PER DAY with this formula.

spell level times number of times a day.

For instance, an amulet that grants invisibility 3 times a day, the cost is 9 effective pluses and would require 500,000 residuum.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It is...

Here is an excerpt of my house rules I have been using for it for the last 4 or 5 years that combines 3e, 4e, and 5e. It's not perfect, but it works and if a PC wants something odd, I research and talk about it.

Nods

Also another clarification on the 4e disenchant and items

A straight level 1 +1 magic item... 360GP where as one with an enchantment
is anywhere from 520GP might be as much as 1000 gp items that are also +1.
(this may or may not reflect how useful they are but ... its definitely not the case that
the rarity rules actually single out particularly better items. )

I had players wanting to make Obsidian Swords back during 1e era so the idea and temptation to use a complex system has been rolling around for a while. (The gathering components etc became a quest of course)
 
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Advilaar

Explorer
Nods

Also another clarification on the 4e disenchant and items

A straight level 1 +1 magic item... 360GP where as one with an enchantment
is anywhere from 520GP might be as much as 1000 gp items that are also +1.
(this may or may not reflect how useful they are but ... its definitely not the case that
the rarity rules actually single out particularly better items. )

I had players wanting to make Obsidian Swords back during 1e era so the idea and temptation to use a complex system has been rolling around for a while. (The gathering components etc became a quest of course)

There might be consumables like potions (unless we are talking about potions in enchanted vials of spell storing that confer effects as well) and scrolls in the 300 gp range, but when you start talking magic weapons and armor, needs to be at least 1000. And, that's used because it does not cover the material of the weapon or armor nor the labor and expertise. Of course, feel free to add economics. If you are in a mining town, whatever metal might be cheaper. If you are in a city, you'll have much better choice, but the price of import would drive things up. War going on with the Were Llama Nation might drive silver and all weapons in general 2 to 3 times price (but hide armor and llama skin cloaks might be super cheap!)

Obsidian swords... Have not heard of those since Dark Sun. On Athas, there was almost no metal but all the cool kids had obsidian weapons which were just as good. I would think since obsidian is a volcanic glass, it could only be gotten in volcanic areas by someone with a proper proficiency to know how to get it out in nice enough chunks, then some good stone carver who also knew weaponsmithing. Sounds like a lot of skilled hands would have to pass over one just to get a non magical version.

Hmm.. ideas. Thanks. See, some of my party's henchmen and followers are heading to the 2nd layer of Ysgaard. It's a type of heaven where everyone true resurrects every 24 hours supposedly to fight endless glorious battles for Valhalla. Problem is the second layer is mostly lava pits and volcanic. People "die" in those lava pools just to be resurrected over and over and over for all eternity unless you are immune to fire. Heaven's great, isn't it? Well, the fire giant gods all live here and love it. This just does not sit right with our high level cleric who happens to be an exarch of a powerful gem dragon goddess. Not only has he listened to one of the henchmen's story of a grandmother and grandfather trapped in one of these lakes, he will answer the prayer on behalf of his goddess. He wants to go there and stomp some Ysgaardian giants (perhaps reigniting an ancient war between giants and dragons), free some souls, and bathe the unholies in the light. But, all that obsidian.... subjected to eons of torment from millions of souls resurrecting then burning alive endlessly.....

yep.. Thanks, Garthanos :D
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Emphasis mine: Isn't that the truth! ;)

I tried fixing 3.5 initially by a page or two of house rules and stripping out systems like the magic item system and plugging in 2E magic item creation rules. It evolved into the final form which was more BECMI with feats keeping Fort/Re/Will but having them scale like AD&D. Then 5E landed.
 

dave2008

Legend
I do miss some of the martial stances of 4e. I would not mind adding some of those in as feats. I would bend if a player pushed and asked, unlikely as it is since most folks are not voracious readers of old editions as we are :D

Yes, it seems to me martial stances could be ported fairly easily. I've thought about doing that as well, but haven't jumped on it yet.
 

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