Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

FrogReaver · Dec 9, 2018

Using a spell slot for damage should generally always be better than the available at will option. That isn't really the case with cantrips and level 1 and level 2 spells. I find that to be a design flaw in 5e. I don't know how to fix it but I think cantrips should never outpace even a level 1 spell IMO.

Thoughts?

doctorbadwolf · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
Using a spell slot for damage should generally always be better than the available at will option. That isn't really the case with cantrips and level 1 and level 2 spells. I find that to be a design flaw in 5e. I don't know how to fix it but I think cantrips should never outpace even a level 1 spell IMO.

Thoughts?

Strongly disagree. I don’t think there is any reason for such a design restriction.

Also, it takes until level 11 before most damage cantrips outperform most damage spells of 1st and second level, IIRC.

Every class either has prepared spells or the ability to refrain spells at level up, don’t they? So, you switch to spells that don’t rely on damage dice for efficacy.

FrogReaver · Dec 9, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Strongly disagree. I don’t think there is any reason for such a design restriction.

Also, it takes until level 11 before most damage cantrips outperform most damage spells of 1st and second level, IIRC.

Every class either has prepared spells or the ability to refrain spells at level up, don’t they? So, you switch to spells that don’t rely on damage dice for efficacy.

I understand how to play effectively. I'm asking why that should be the effective way to play in the first place. Why should cantrips continue to get stronger, to the point that they are stronger than level 1 damage spells? Or alternatively either

1) Should cantrips not scale any at all?
2) Should spells that end up being strictly inferior to scaled cantrips scale themselves at some point?

doctorbadwolf · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
I understand how to play effectively. I'm asking why that should be the effective way to play in the first place. Why should cantrips continue to get stronger, to the point that they are stronger than level 1 damage spells? Or alternatively either

1) Should cantrips not scale any at all?
2) Should spells that end up being strictly inferior to scaled cantrips scale themselves at some point?

I don’t care about optimization. I wasn’t trying to explain it to you.

I was stating that if you don’t like needing to upcast a level 1 spell for it to outperform your cantrips at higher levels, there is a built in option for you to avoid that.

I don’t believe there is anything whatsoever with that dynamic. I reject the premise that 1st level spells must always hit harder than cantrips, even in the 3rd and 4th tier of play.

Charlaquin · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
1) Should cantrips not scale any at all?
2) Should spells that end up being strictly inferior to scaled cantrips scale themselves at some point?

Cantrips scaling and leveled spells not scaling unless you upcast them are both important for caster/martial balance in 5e. I would love a system that went with option 1 and still maintained rough parity between casters and martials across all levels, but that’s much easier said than done, and I don’t think 5e is built to be able to pull it off.

Kobold Avenger · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
I understand how to play effectively. I'm asking why that should be the effective way to play in the first place. Why should cantrips continue to get stronger, to the point that they are stronger than level 1 damage spells? Or alternatively either

Because cantrips are like weapon attacks for casters, the classes that depend on fighting get extra attacks and in some cases extra damage from things like divine strike. Cantrips scaling up, are to roughly keep up with those classes. It's not a complete parity as some classes get more attacks and many have special conditions, but that's they were designed that way.

Leatherhead · Dec 9, 2018

Do you want quadratic wizards? Because that's how you get quadratic wizards.

MechaPilot · Dec 9, 2018

The lower spell levels have a lot of nice utility spells. Relying on cantrips for damage allows you to choose a bundle of helpful utility spells for your first and second level spells.

Seramus · Dec 9, 2018

It's a natural part of the game design that cantrips eclipse the damage of 1st and 2nd level spells, allowing you to take utility spells instead of damage spells. Casters (while very powerful) have always had issues with feeling pressured to choose damage/cc/heal spells instead of fun utility spells.

dave2008 · Dec 9, 2018

Alternately, you could make 1st & 2nd level spells become at-will spells as you level up so they don't cost you a spot. So at 11th level 1st level spells become at-wills and at 17th level 2nd level spells become at-will. This creates other issues of course. Some utility spells would become to spammable, but you could just move them to higher spell slots (which not a bad idea IMHO).

To be clear, I am not suggesting you do this, but it might something that works for you.

Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Kobold Avenger

Legend

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.

MechaPilot

Explorer

Seramus

Hero

dave2008

Legend

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