Iconic Bard?

Just wondering what you guys think defines an iconic bard. From a mechanics and power level we really like the 5E Bard, but it doesn't feel very bard like to us more of a primary caster with a fe bardy bits and pieces stapled on. Bard dice for example might be better off as bless like effect, or the old inspire courage or even the NPC ability the Knight has in the MM. THe Pathfinder 2 Bard kind of brought back a few memories and looked decent enough but not overly interested in PF2.

So looking at maybe a bard rewrite for homebrew/5E and powering down the primary caster thing and going back a bit more to the old Fighter/Mage/Thief+ music thing in one class. More like the 2E=Pathfinder type bard but things like magical secrets and improved healing from 4E and 5E would be fine.

Taliesin and Merlin... were Bard for me. In D&D lands that means a healthy dose of Druid flavor. They were teachers and inspiration of heroes at minimum.

Fighter/Mage/Thief is more Gypsy to my mind. Which is still pretty interesting flavor nothing wrong with it quite fun in its own right.

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Well the original (and more traditional and historically accurate) bard was a "fighter/DRUID/thief + music thing." Not "mage."

So for starters, there, I would make a change.

You're definitely on the right track with cutting them back from a "primary caster" to a mixed bag/built-in multiclassing. For 5e purposes, I think 5e really dropped the ball making Paladins cleric/divine magic half-casters, Rangers druid/nature magic half-casters, and NOT making Bards the mage/arcane magic half-casters (yes, I know what I said above, but D&D has been having bards use arcane magic, exclusively for a long time. So that's what people expect...and I'm going to give them some of that. Bear with me.)

For 5e, my "iconic" bard would look something like this...

--Initial Armor + Weapons as written.
--Skills: Must have Perform or Persuasion, at least 1 Lore, and any other 2 skills.

At 1st level: -They gain Cantrips at 1st level, but otherwise use a Half-Caster Progression: Choose from Druid list, plus any Enchantment or Illusion spell/magic type from any class' list.
--Bardic Inspiration, as normal.

At 2nd: Fighting Style, Spellcasting kicks in on the paladin spell progression (rangers have spells known, whereas the paladin can just choose from their lists...I believe the latter is more flavorful for someone of a bard's diversity. If they have a situation, they can come up with a song or chant or incantation to fit the situation vs. being locked into the 2-3 songs per level they know), and Jack-of-all-Trades.

At 3rd: Bardic College (choosing the Valor college gets you Medium armors and more martial weapons), Expertise

...huh...looks like, basically, from there on out you can just follow the bardic features progression (paladin spell progression table) as normal.

In my own homebrew, Bards are placed in the "Mystic [nee "Priest"]" class category. This along with other things, means:
--their HD is set to d8
--they gain access to Light and Medium armors immediately. Unlike other Mystic classes, I remove Shields as an option.
--have a limited array of weapons. In the bard's case, this includes all Simple, all Ranged, and light single-handed weapons (which immediately allows for short swords, scimitars or rapiers)...giving them, essentially, the same as the Rogue category of classes.

...and perhaps most notably:
--their primary class shtick is based around "channeling" with spell-use (access to a full spell list and slot independent progression) not kicking in until 3rd level. In the case of Bards, this falls under the same umbrella as druids as "Channel Nature."

So, at first level, the Bard gains the following channeling abilities:
--Sense Balance (a general neutral-aligned version of "divine sense" that reveals extraplanar entities or areas/person/objects of extreme alignment -LG or CE)
--Fascinate -ye olde area effect charm to neutralize opponents/distract attentions
--Inspire Competence (which essentially works similar to Inspiration dice, granting roll bonuses to others skill and save rolls).

Also at first level, the Bard can use a couple of cantrips per day (my homebrew doesn't have at-will cantrips, until 12th level for bards) and a "Jack of all trades" type bonus to skill rolls.

The spell list, when it kicks in (at 3rd), includes nature magic (which includes some minor healing), illusions, and enchantments. The Mystic class spell progression, basically, grants slots/progression (roughly) a level behind where mages and other arcane casters receive them. So, not exactly "half caster" in the 5e sense, but in my homebrew system seems to work out.

Additional channeling features as the class levels up include things such as the Countercharm, Inspiring Courage (bonuses to attacks and damage), Inspiring Greatness (better bonuses to everything).

Additional class features allow the addition of a martial weapon or two, and "Lore Expertise/Mastery" that allows a bonus to knowledge rolls for the flavor of ye olde 'legend lore" ability to identify items and/or recall stories/info about places and people of the 1 & 2e bards.

That about covers it.

Have fun with it.

I think inspiring word and strong lore/knowledge skills are the defining mechanics of Bards. I like the 5e bard and am content with it being a full caster - I think it works well thematically - I just wish it had its own spells.

Raith5 said:

I think inspiring word and strong lore/knowledge skills are the defining mechanics of Bards. I like the 5e bard and am content with it being a full caster - I think it works well thematically - I just wish it had its own spells.

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Yeah my home brew D&D bard has inspiring word back but adding in some 4E and 5E elements while returning the old level 1-6 spell table a'la 2E to Pathfinder.

The Druid tie in is basically adding some of those spells to the Bard list andor letting it steal spells form other classes a'la 5E. It will level up slightly slower than the 2E Bard (same speed as Thief), so I gave it the cleric xp table. A tweaked version could be added to 5E (more powerful bard stuff, half caster like Paladin/Ranger).

The 1E PHB Bard didn't stick with me I look more towards the 2E, 3E, 3.5 and Pathfinder Bards and its kind of what the Bard player prefers as well (and I married her so yeah).

While it's largely forgotten today, in the 1960s and 1970s there was a series of extremely popular young adult books called the Chronicles of Prydain.

It featured what I think is the ironic bard, Fflewddur Fflam. He was a fairly good fighter and could charm people with his magical harp.

trancejeremy said:

While it's largely forgotten today, in the 1960s and 1970s there was a series of extremely popular young adult books called the Chronicles of Prydain.

It featured what I think is the ironic bard, Fflewddur Fflam. He was a fairly good fighter and could charm people with his magical harp.

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A fearless fighter! A bard beyond compare! The wisest king in all of Pry - *twang!*

Best representation of a Bard-like character I've seen in a very long time is Thom Merrilin from the Wheel of Time series.

As a game class - I never liked the 1e Bard as written, in part because by the time the PCs in the game got to high enough level to think about becoming one the campaign was often mostly or completely finished. To be playable they needed to be a full class starting at 1st level just like any other.

I've since redesigned the class from the ground up three or four times and still am not all that satisfied with the result. My most recent iteration has them completely on a feat-like system, where they pick abilities at each level-up with some of those being prerequisites for later abilities; and there's more available abilities than they can choose so they always have to forego something in order to choose something else. The theory behind this is that no two Bards should ever be alike.

Works in theory. Practice is a different matter; they've ended up somewhat overpowered and I can't figure out how to rein them in without completely gutting them.

Work remains in progress.........

Haven't played the 5E Bard.

In 1st edition, to be a Bard meant you were superman. Fighter levels, then change class to Thief, then to Druid. Your Druid level was your Bard level. He was a full powered triple threat.

Personally I tend to think of Alan Adale, from Robin Hood legends. Mechanics aside, his primary role was to entertain the troops, though he wasn't a slouch in a fight.

The D&D 3.* Bard seems to fit the image, mechanically speaking. He's a third string fighter, spell caster and skill monkey/Rogue. The Bardic Music abilities and the Perform ranks required to use them kept him on theme as an entertainer, and the Bardic Knowledge mechanic, though vaguely described, gave a way to portray them as educated and well rounded.

In our games, the Bardic Knowledge ability was always played as, "I recall a song/story that mentioned something about that...". For example, you couldn't use it to know the layout of a thief's warren or castle, unless it had been around long enough to have had songs or stories told about it.

I like that house rule, and would like to see it made official.

I'd like to see a wider variety of Bardic Music abilities, where there are several choices for each level/stage of advancement. That would allow more customization and person flavor.

For example, while Inspire Courage is currently available to all Bards, we might invent another of similar power and let the Bard choose which one he/she knows, just as they have to choose which spells they know.

A list of alternate Bard songs might be interesting, but is probably a topic for another thread.

But to sum up, to me the Iconic Bard is a support character. They're knowledgeable and clever, more skilled at combat defense/dodge than offense, providers of advice and inspiration. They might be a leading character, personality wise, but "lead from the rear" in actual melee. They play music, sing songs and tell stories, and in turn they write music, songs and stories about the adventures they've seen. They make others work better in combat, and make them look better when they relate the tale afterwards.