We learn more from failure...

jasper · Jan 18, 2019

77IM said:
Am I the only one here who would LOVE to participate in a game where the PCs are constantly screwing everything up? That sounds awesome!

Visions game store. Friday night. Montgomery Al. 6 pm. I will be the dm with the skull.

Henry · Jan 18, 2019

Aiden_Keller_ said:
I have tried and failed...I feel that milestone is MUCH easier to handle.

Funny thing -- our groups have been using Milestones for close to twenty years now, back when 3e unified the XP tables, well before it made an appearance by that name in 4e.

Rhenny · Jan 20, 2019

Some systems that are really made for this idea, where more failure eventually builds skill or ability, include GURPS and the older d6 West End Games version of Star Wars. Systems that grant experience points that can be used to directly augment skills are best for this.

When I was playing the West End Games version of Star Wars d6, I made up a rule that had to do with the "wild die." In that game, anytime the PC attempted an attack or action, in addition to the other dice rolled based on training/skill, there was a "wild die." If it turned up "6" then the DM narrated an extraordinary success. If it turned up "1", the DM imposed a complication. I let players make tally marks every time they got a "1" using a specific skill or attack. Then, when they had 3 tally marks, in any particular skill that they used, I'd allow them to bump up their skill one pip (that was a unit used in the game to grant a +1 to the die). It was really fun actually.

This system works with GURPS too because xp can be used to directly add to skills, talents, etc. Maybe each terrible failure adds XP.

For 5e, perhaps you can give XP for each "1" rolled. It would make rolling a one a bitter-sweet experience and might make it feel as if the PC is learning from failure. But, since D&D is a class based/level based advancement system, it is hard to allow for individual skills/proficiencies to grow outside the regular leveling mechanic.

Try the XP give away. Maybe 50 xp per level for each 1 rolled. Obviously the higher the bonus, the quicker PCs will advance in level. It may actually be fun. At least it will take the sting away from rolling so poorly.

Libramarian · Jan 20, 2019

Charlaquin said:
XP in D&D isn’t a simulation of the learning process, it’s a reward. I give XP for whatever behavior I want to encourage in a given campaign; usually for overcoming encounters, completing quests, and discovering secrets.

For me XP is neither a simulation of skill acquisition nor a reward for behavior I want to see. It's an award given (or taken away) to amplify the highs and lows of the game, enhancing excitement. It should make the players feel better when they're feeling good, and worse when they're feeling bad - kind of like betting money on your team in a sports game.

Mistwell · Jan 20, 2019

Nevvur said:
There's that old adage about learning more from failure than success. For those DMs who track XP instead of milestones, have you attempted to model this when awarding XP? If so, what did that look like at your table?

I've awarded XP for successfully fleeing a creature too powerful for the party. It's akin in my mind to solving a problem - the problem being they would die if they stayed.

S'mon · Jan 20, 2019

77IM said:
I definitely learn more by running bad games than when I run great games.

I think I learn the most seeing other DMs run either bad games or great games.

But this is because I already have a baseline knowledge of how to run a game.

Nevvur · Jan 23, 2019

I was reflecting on this thread when a tangential idea occurred. An interesting reversal to the narrative would be a person whose successes are (nominally) superficial failures. Think Jar Jar Binks. Never actually seen a player narrate their successes as a string of incredible accidents, but it would be a fun challenge to host as a DM, or play as a PC. Would have a weird interplay with the original post concept, as well.

Baron Opal II · Feb 2, 2019

Baron Opal II said:
I've come across a home rule where a person gains 10 xp for each point of damage dealt, and 20 xp for each point of damage taken. AoE gains xp just for one target. Plus xp for loot and goals. It's a bit too fine for me, but I have adopted 100 xp per HD defeated, and 200 xp per level of character for the character when they are dropped to 0.

MarkB said:
It seems like such a system has some nasty positive-feedback loops in it which will ensure ever-increasing level disparity. Any character who is below the average party level will be able to deal out less damage per combat, and sustain less damage before dropping to zero hitpoints - and vice versa for anyone above the average party level.

From what I'm told, there is a feedback loop, but to bring everyone up to the same level.

And, since there is also xp for loot, you can give someone a boost by splitting the loot differently.

So far, awarding xp by HD, it seems to work okay. As long as you rescue your more fragile friends it works out.