What are the biggest RPG crimes?

Celebrim

Legend
Frankly, if the player thinks that Skull and Shackles “deprotagonizes” characters, I think he’s got a poor understanding of what a protagonist does or is. A protagonist doesn’t always control their situations, they just retain the focus of the observers (usually readers) so that we see how they choose to respond to them. Being at the mercy of brutal pirates at the start just means they’re in the position of many predecessor protagonists like Spartacus, Maximus, Ben Hur, or Offred. Their (your) job is to decide what to do about your predicament.

Oh, I agree. But that doesn't make the initial phases of the adventure less on rails. I think his frustration is that he's presented with a puzzle that doesn't have an immediate solution. He tried kicking on the goads only to get slapped down, and that just fed into his sense that this wasn't a fair scenario. Once he got over the shock a bit, and started to deal with, "OK, this just is going to require some long term planning.", then he was OK with it. Honestly, I kind of like that the player freaked out, because if he played entirely rationally, it wouldn't have been as good of a scene. The character he's playing would I think have acted irrationally to the situation, and if you were composing the story you'd want someone to do so.

Now if I can just get them to the point where they are making those choices rationally and deliberately instead of playing out their own emotional responses through the character, we'll have some real RPers....

Oh well, I'm still having fun.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The DM isn't here to present an infinite number of sufficiently satisfying plot hooks, and there are plenty of tales of players who simply refuse to bite. No matter how well, how interesting, how many hook you create, you can't make everyone happy.

We all know that guy. The guy who, no matter what, has to go left. The party could be in the middle of a quest, in the depths of a dungeon, but nope, this guy decides it's time for a new, completely irrelevant direction!
I actually don't see this as a crime at all. All that happens is "this guy" has just role-played himself out of the party...and maybe out of the game until and unless either a) he rolls up a replacement PC and the party finds it, or b) the party follows his original PC if only to loot its corpse.

More of a problem, though not enough to be called a crime, is the DM who can't hit the curveball when a party does suddenly decide to left-turn and do something completely different.

If we've all sat down and agreed to play a published module, this is totally inexcusable. If we've all sat down to play the DMs homebrew, then it is doubly inexcusable to not at least take a nibble.
Nice DM who tells you what module she's running before you play it. :) The only time I do thisis if I'm concerned one or more of my players has been through it (or wosre, DMed it) before.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It is a minor but hardly mortal sin for the DM to provide only one interesting thing for the players to do. It is a mortal sin for the DM to provide nothing to do.
Er...not quite. It's a mortal sin if the players go and proactively look for something to do in the fiction and the DM doesn't give them anything to find. But if the players/PCs don't go looking the DM's under no real obligation to shove an adventure into their faces, particularly in any sort of sandbox-style campaign.

Invariably, they go through more characters than the rest of the party combined, because they are always going off alone and poking the bear. They are that guy that wants to solo the killer bunny. They are that guy that charges into the next room all alone, and either pulls the lever or picks up the foozle. Literally, they will lose several characters over the course of the campaign where the rest of the party in character doesn't even know how they died, because they do such a good job of doing their own thing that no one ever finds the body. Invariably, they are the guy that manages to lose their character in a way that they can't even be raised from the dead, because they are just too dead. Their character is the one that always ends up incinerated, dissolved, disintegrated, or shunted through a portal to some far and unhappy dimension because they had to leap before they looked and no one was around to help prevent the catastrophe. I simply don't get it.
I do.

I'm that guy, though perhaps not as extreme as you show here; and a lot of the time it comes down to sheer luck*. If there's a Deck of Many Things in the neighbourhood I find whatever rationale I can for my PC to dive in and start pulling cards - and I get hosed almost every time while the rest of the PCs generally do just great! If there's a lever it's inevitable someone's going to pull it - but if it's me I'll get hosed due to luck while if it's someone else there either won't be a risk after all or they'll make their save by a mile.

* - an example from a few years back: party finds a magic cloak, nobody's sure what it does. My character and another PC both want to try it on but get into a polite Canadian standoff ("after you", "no, you first, I insist") - eventually we flip a coin to see who tries it. I "win" the flip, put it on, and drop dead - no save. Ye olde 1e Cloak of Poison.

Yeah, the law of averages owes me more than a few. :)

I like to play a bit gonzo because hey, it ain't real. :) Caution and planning are for real life when it matters but boring as all hell in the game - maybe spend a minute on basic strategy then throw caution to the wind and get on with it.

They are like kids addicted to bitter rather than sweet. It's not even like they ate the Tide Pod and killed themself because it looked like candy. These are people who will ignore the candy to go munch on the contents of the box labelled rat poison even after someone in the group uses Detect Poison to prove that it is poisonous.
In my case it's more that I don't want to wait for the decision (which in our crew can sometimes take a while) as to whether or not to cast Detect Poison; and as nobody can read the label I'd rather just get on with it. I never ignore the candy, though - this all happens long after the actual candy has been eaten. :)

I just wish other players would be less risk-averse sometimes.

If anyone can give me insight into what is going on in these people's minds, I'd appreciate it, because its one of the few great unsolved mysteries I still face as a DM. Generally speaking, you aren't dealing with an unintelligent person. It's not like they are people who simply vastly overestimate how clever they are, because they aren't actually clever. Quite often they are reasonably clever persons, but like the Chimpanzee that can't do math when it involves food, because "Food!", there is something in their personality that repeatedly makes them act stupid when they are RPing.
Games where nobody ever acts stupid (particularly and especially when playing a low-wisdom PC) or does gonzo things are games without life.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've had people attempt this before, and it's generally followed by the following statement:
"Okay, your character wanders off to do something else, they're now no longer a member of the party, please roll up a new character who is party-oriented and interested in sticking with the group, otherwise you're also welcome to wander off and do something else."

99% of the time their character turns right around and rejoins the party. 1% of the time we end up with an open seat.
Which seems strange, in that the most reasonable outcome would be for the player - who has it seems found good reason to roleplay the previous character out of the party - to roll up a replacement.

If the character suddenly turns around and rejoins the party it's probably not being played true to its characterization (if it was, why would it be leaving in the first place?).

...new character who is party-oriented and interested in sticking with the group...
You may be the DM but you will NOT tell me how to play my character.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Don't you use the module cover as part of your DM screen? I know I always did. :D
I used to, many years ago, but now I have an "official" TSR AD&D double screen*, in a custom holder made by my better half.

* - signed by Dave Arneson, no less. :)

That, and modern modules don't have those detached cardstock covers any more - dammit - and most of the canned modules I use these days are something modern that I convert for my game.
 

Hussar

Legend
I used to, many years ago, but now I have an "official" TSR AD&D double screen*, in a custom holder made by my better half.

* - signed by Dave Arneson, no less. :)

That, and modern modules don't have those detached cardstock covers any more - dammit - and most of the canned modules I use these days are something modern that I convert for my game.

Heh. Well, there is that.

OTOH, the odds of someone at my table actually having played any module I drag out of my collection is so small that I'm not overly worried about it.

Go go 3rd party modules. :D
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
I actually don't see this as a crime at all. All that happens is "this guy" has just role-played himself out of the party...and maybe out of the game until and unless either a) he rolls up a replacement PC and the party finds it, or b) the party follows his original PC if only to loot its corpse.

More of a problem, though not enough to be called a crime, is the DM who can't hit the curveball when a party does suddenly decide to left-turn and do something completely different.
The more important point is not that "sometimes the party goes left" but that "certain people always go left".

Nice DM who tells you what module she's running before you play it. :) The only time I do thisis if I'm concerned one or more of my players has been through it (or wosre, DMed it) before.

I always give players a heads up if I'm running a module. Some things just don't interest people and it's nice to know that up-front. I even give players a quick rundown on any homebrew setting I'm running, because other things aside, they at least need to know the kind of world they live in to create characters and backstories to fit it.

Which seems strange, in that the most reasonable outcome would be for the player - who has it seems found good reason to roleplay the previous character out of the party - to roll up a replacement.

If the character suddenly turns around and rejoins the party it's probably not being played true to its characterization (if it was, why would it be leaving in the first place?).
Oh please, it's not about role-play. It's about hogging on the attention and forcing the game to do what Billy wants to do instead of what everyone else wants to do.

You may be the DM but you will NOT tell me how to play my character.
Then I guess we'd have an open seat since I do set rules on what types of characters are allowed at my table. If you are playing your character in a way that is antithetical to party fun, you are not welcome.

This goes back to first-page comments about "entitlement" and "I'm just doing what my character would do!"
 

Celebrim

Legend
Er...not quite. It's a mortal sin if the players go and proactively look for something to do in the fiction and the DM doesn't give them anything to find. But if the players/PCs don't go looking the DM's under no real obligation to shove an adventure into their faces, particularly in any sort of sandbox-style campaign.

I have a beef against some so called 'sandbox' DMs. There are some DMs out there that think they run a sandbox, but they don't. The secret to running a sandbox is that you have to be willing to prep vastly more material than you need or intend to use. Indeed, that is my definition of a sandbox. If you aren't prepping material you don't intend to use, you aren't running a sandbox. In a true sandbox, wherever you go, there is the fun, and eventually players get enough experience in the setting that they can orientate themselves within it and start being proactive and deciding what goals that they have, what factions that they intend to ally with, who they think the villains are, and so forth. One conceivable way to run a sandbox for example might be to have a stack of low level modules, and you've drawn up a setting that scatters these low level modules liberally all over a fairly small homebrew map. You might need to write 16 different adventures each with plot points that might lead to further adventures. The point is that sandboxes are informationally dense. They are not for the faint-hearted DM, but something to undertake once you are experienced and if you are the sort of person that world-builds continually in your leisure time because it's one of the most enjoyable things you do.

All well and good. I've had some great times in a sandbox.

But in my experience a good half of the people who run a sandbox do so because they think its a way to cut down on their prep time. Instead of seeing it as a style where they will need to produce vastly more content than they'll need, they see it as a style where they don't really have to prep anything because they can improvise it on the fly. And invariably, they are suffering from Dunning-Kruger effect and are vastly less capable at improvising than they think they are, because the secret to good improvisation is that you've prepped so much material that its easy to adapt things you've already done to the moment. For example, further up the thread someone suggested that the material in an adventure path became useless if people got off the path. And that may be true if your dealing with a less experienced DM, but it's perfectly easy to take adventure path material and plug it into a sandbox. In the case of the best as I can tell so far, completely on rails "Skull & Shackles" campaign, it wouldn't at all be hard to pick up a couple of relevant Golarion sourcebooks, and if the party got off the rails and went sandbox on you, you could accommodate that. The material that you didn't use from the Adventure Path, could still come back at a later point, just with a different timing and setup. Instead of A->B->C, you might do A->B->H->X->C->K->D. The veteran DM would be able to flex. In the hands of an experienced DM, modules become setting guides.

All DMing involves a certain amount of illusionism, and the trick is to be able to pull off the illusion so that to the players the world is real and has always been there and is living and changing and responds to what their characters do. The key to success as a DM is to give the players the experience of exploring something, and discovering secrets you have been hiding on your side of the screen. In my experience, no improvisational DM is able to sustain the illusion. So many tricks that improvisational players tell you to use, destroy that sense you are exploring a real world. Things like taking your queues from the players own expectations, quickly cause the players to realize that nothing is real. The joy of exploration is not finding what you wanted to find, but discovering what you didn't know was there. Guys that run games on random encounters or other random generators, never produce anything as interesting as the GMs that use those same random generators before they start play to inspire and produce content that then flows off their tongue when called for. If your random encounter table isn't imbedded in an already heavily detailed world, then it is never going to produce anything particularly rich.

I for the life of me don't understand why anyone would think that a group of players thrust in to a setting which even the DM does not clearly see would have enough information about the setting to make good choices about what they want to do. If you are running a campaign, just as if you are writing a novel, the first page is the most important page of the book. I don't care how clever your setting is, if that cleverness requires overturning a random rock on hex grid A10318 because it isn't believable that the PCs would find something that's been hidden for 1000 years, you have a completely wrong-headed idea of what running a game is like, and it's not your players fault that they didn't go looking. Paint the damn scene. Put up signposts everywhere. Have the adventure come to them. Then, once they've become locals and know the lay of the land, they can make choices about where to explore. Do you have an obligation to have the adventure come to the players, even in (especially in!) a sandbox? Yes. A thousand times yes. And anyone that tells you otherwise isn't worth listening to. Shove the adventure in their faces, and keep shoving adventures in their face until they take a hook. Do not expect the players to find your content without a map. Do not expect the players to understand your setting without a detailed guide. Do not expect the players to care about the setting until after they are immersed in it. And above all, do not expect your players to create your content for you.

</rant>
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
The question is, "Is an RPG like a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text"? I would strongly say that it is not. The key distinction is that all of those other things are just stories, while an RPG is supposed to represent a believable place. There is no "plot" in an RPG; there's just a bunch of stuff that happens.

What are you playing, Fiasco? I am interested to hear.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top